Westerners approaching non-Western traditions

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#61

You assume I learned yoga from a new age book. I have been a practitioner most of my (52) years and I teacher for over 5. I studied and took my training from a Hindu who came to US about 15 years ago. When I have mentioned this before you found reason to tell me that whatever training I got we not correct. How would you know? You think I should go back to basics, you don’t want to waste your time with me, you think I don’t understand yoga and the insults go on.

Apologies, but this was not apparent in the answer you gave. “It does not matter who is right or wrong or who started what, it only matter whats is in our hearts” This sounded like the classical cop-out of a fluffy new-ager.

Of course it matters who is right and and who is wrong and who discovered it. Yoga is a highly technical science which has been developed over 5000 years(or more) in India by several researchers. It has both an exact theory an an exact system of practice and all its core texts are Hindu. This is the unique contribution of Hindus to the world. It’s not a fluffy “something you know in the heart” It is an exact science.

Do you know quantum mechanics in your heart as well? Would you say it does not matter what is right or wrong in quantum mechanics or who started it?

#62

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;33873] If push came to shove we would withdraw our services.[/QUOTE]

Does this mean an end to annoying telemarketers trying to sell me new visa cards? Halleluah and erin go bragh.

#63

SD- Thanks for the apology. Very nice, really.

I know yoga is Hindu. That was never disputed. I know, albeit not as much as you, the general history of yoga and Hinduism. I honor and appreciate their contributions and customs. All I’m trying to say is that people follow many paths to get to the same place (at least hopefully). We are all trying to be better people, reach nirvana, drop our veils, etc. If our heart and motives are pure in trying to reach that end does it really matter what religion you follow? If there is a God, he is a just and loving God. He will accept people for what is in their hearts rather than only one religion. So, the way I see it there is no right or wrong on anything. There is always more than one way to look at something. We are not to judge.

I understand you look at yoga as a science. It is part of your religion. That is wonderful and right for you. While I don’t doubt it is a science it has so many benefits that it needs to be shared throughout the world. If someone is practicing yoga and is also on a spiritual path, there may be differences in what we call certain things or how we perceive EGO (tee-hee couldn’t resist) but we are aiming for something very similar.

#64

[QUOTE=FlexPenguin;33875]Does this mean an end to annoying telemarketers trying to sell me new visa cards? Halleluah and erin go bragh.[/QUOTE]

Our services go well beyond just call centres :smiley: We are doing most of the research and development in information technology, software development and solutions and now animation, graphics and multimedia. We are also leading researchers in stemcell research and other biotechnologies. Now we are become hubs for hardware manufacture like cars, aerospace and telecommunications technology. We are collaborating with the very best in the world in scientific research. We are amongst the top 5 countries in the world today when it comes to science and technology and can even build our own supercomputers, flight engines and weapons. Hindus have always been at the forefront of science and we are getting back there.

The progress we have made considering how destitute the British left us when we gained independence is very impressive and makes Hindus proud. Now about 70% of Indians are literate(some states have 90+% literacy) and about 500 million Indians are middle-class. We have the most billionaries in Asia and soon the world and our economy is about to outgrow Japan.

It is a silly stereotype that India is only booming because of call centers lol :smiley:

#65

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;33878]We have the most billionaries in Asia and soon the world and our economy is about to outgrow Japan.[/QUOTE]

I bet the Shudras and Chandalas are all sitting around toasting that little revelation.

Before you begin to show me how my ignorance is based on stereotyped racist hyperbole, I want to point out that anyone can stand on one foot with his forefinger pointed at the sky while extolling the extraordinary virtues of his maternal heritage, but who cares? I have yet known anyone from India that can make a scotch that rivals those on the Isle of Skye. Now, there is a thing!

#66

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;33706]
I am afraid this is exactly what is happening when Western people impose their cultural understanding on Hindu cultural notions like Yoga. So a highly technical concept like say “Purusha and Prakriti” become translated as “Spirit and Matter” and in Western culture this is synonymous with psyche/mind and matter. When this is not at all what Purusha and Prakriti is.
[/QUOTE]

Your fears are unfounded and your judgement is faulty. Spirit and Matter is not synonymous with psyche/mind and matter.

Purusha is the pure consciousness and Prakriti is the content of pure consciousness which exists as a potential state.

This is probably an acceptable statement if we consider that in the Bhagavad Gita, Prakriti is called the field and Purusa is the knower of the field. Notice that here I use the term Prakriti to refer to all 24 principles of material nature in their manifested states. The word Prakriti is often used to refer to the whole of material nature, and this is correct because Prakriti is considered to be pervasive throughout material nature. When you say that Prakriti only exists as a potential state, you are referring only to the root Prakriti, which is another sense of the word. The technical meaning of Prakriti is “that which brings forth”, or the mother principle. That is why the Bhagavad Gita, the Upanishads, and Samkhya literature all mention eight Prakritis.

Do you now see the rope, where you thought there was a snake?

#67

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;33852]It is to set the record straight. Yoga is a non-western tradition and if you are going to approach Yoga you need to approach it in its culture.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, and you probably need to become an Indian citizen, and marry a Hindu to teach Yoga, I suppose. It’s too late!! Yoga has changed. You have to accept that. Things in life change. Some people do meditation without becoming a Buddhist, and Yoga is the same now.

#68

When you say that Prakriti only exists as a potential state, you are referring only to the root Prakriti, which is another sense of the word. The technical meaning of Prakriti is “that which brings forth”, or the mother principle. That is why the Bhagavad Gita, the Upanishads, and Samkhya literature all mention eight Prakritis.

That is what prakriti really means. The rest are evolutes of prakriti. This is why the 24 tattvas of Samkhya mention Prakriti as the 24th tattva which then manifests and transforms into the evolutes: 23rd is Buddhi, 22nd is ahmakara and so on.

The unmanifest and root prakriti which is where the gunas are is real prakriti. I have told you before it is an inferred entity because it is supersensible.

You will find the first description of prakriti in the Vedas where she is also represented as Aditi(the infinite and boundless, mother principle) and then Aditi gives birth to the Adityas the first Aditya is Indra. Indra unleashes the cosmic waters(soma synonymous with apas) causing existence to manifest. The next aditya is agni which forms from the cosmic waters. Then follows Mitra-Varuna and so on. The same evolutionary scheme of Samkhya is being described beginning with the mother principle and the birth of the rest of the cosmos from her.

There is also a description of the same in the Nasadiya Suktam and the Purusha Suktam.

There are several different discriptions of the same such as the Durga Suktam describing the 9 forms of Shakti(again transformations of prakriti)

#69

The Shudras are basically labourers and labourers have always existed side by side with rich merchants. They serve different functions in society. There is no category for Chandals in the Hindu caste system. This was a category that was developed later by Indian society for certain people who were untouchable because of the polluting jobs they did like grave digging, sewer cleaning etc. Even we to an extent keep distance from people like this.

In any case everybody in India will benefit from the increasing affluent population who are driving the Indian economy today.

In the end I would like to see the capitalist system scrapped and the Hindu varnashram dharma system adopted again. Capitalism is a system of exploitation and it is fundamentally anti-hindu in its principles. India was more prosperous under Hindu systems than it has been under Western systems.

I want to see a full return to Hindu systems. The restoration of the Hindu education system, Hindu healthcare, Hindu architecture and townplanning and Hindu arts combined with modern technology. Hindus should once again lead the world like they did in the past. It should lead by example.

#70

Good job, Surya Deva.

You licked them fair & square.

And exposed them for the bigoted small-minded hypocirts they really are.

Ugh

Core789

Happy Days Everyone

#71

[QUOTE=core789;33921]Good job, Surya Deva.

You licked them fair & square.

And exposed them for the bigoted small-minded hypocirts they really are.

Ugh
[/QUOTE]

Small minded! Small minded is believing something without evidence, with is what being done. ANYONE can just assert religious dogma.

#72

White supremacist's rant :rolleyes:

don't you think you're generalizing here a bit??

anyway, here's something to add to your woes:

The richest European is a devout Hindu

since majority of scientists & doctors & engineers in India are born in Hindu families, no one should object if I credit Indian hindus for any worthwhile contribution of India.

Indian hindus develops solar powered touchscreen laptop at less than $35

India double billionaires (all except one Indian billionaire are Hindus & a few Jains)

Circa 2017: Indian billionaire club to be world's biggest
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/news-by-company/corporate-trends/Circa-2017-Indian-billionaire-club-to-be-worlds-biggest/articleshow/2987745.cms

Indian(Hindu)-origin executives head a dozen Fortune 500 firms

NASA pros send resumes to India (I wonder why?)
http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed/bangalore/NASA-pros-send-resumes-to-India/Article1-347387.aspx

Wonders of Vedic math
http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Indian-students-swear-by-Vedic-maths/357240/1/

Bill gates follows Vedic wisdom
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Infotech/Software/Geek_god_Gates_follows_Vedic_wisdom/articleshow/3175391.cms

Role of Hinduism in world economics
http://www.helium.com/items/562442-the-role-of-hinduism-in-world-economics

Time and Reincarnation

U.S. Buddhists, Hindus Back Evolution, Says Study
http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=5dbb57b1707ee3b07cb20c2abc5994e4

#73

[QUOTE=PatR;33937]White supremacist’s rant :rolleyes

don’t you think you’re generalizing here a bit??
b]The richest European is a devout Hindu[/b]
][/QUOTE]

If it makes you feel better to think of my opinion as white supermacist rant, than I don’t want to take that pleasure away from you.

Now, doesn’t announcing that the richest European is a devout Hindu, completely cheapen your argument? Just because people are wealthy, or generously contribute to society, doesn’t automatically make their religious beliefs factual. Come on, your clever enough to know that.

#74

Just because people are wealthy, or generously contribute to society, doesn’t automatically make their religious beliefs factual. Come on, your clever enough to know that.

Actually the people are a reflection of their religion. .

What do Christians have to show for themselves? About 2000 years of intolerance, persecution of others who thought differently, inquisitions, suppression of progress. Orthodox Christian still believe in absolutely ridiculous beliefs like satan is out there to destroy us, has founded every other religion other than Christianity, and god is a tyrant that will send us to eternal damnation or eternal salvation for the actions in one life. Simply accepting Jesus as your lord and saviour is enough, it does not matter if you are a murderous tyrant.

What does Muslims have to show for themselves? Extreme violence and genocide of non-Muslims, fundamentalism, terrorism.

I mean a question that needs to be asked is why are Hindus just so damn cool? Why did we have urban and middle class civilisation before everybody else? Why did we build universities and hospitals before everybody else? Why did we do science and philosophy before anybody else? Why did we have industries before everybody and were exporting to everybody? Why did we navigate and explore the high seas before everybody else? Why even today we have been able to rise to the top and become pionners in science, technology and business. Why do we have so many scientists, doctors, engineers?

To answer this question I am going to invite you to compare the religions of Christianity, Hinduism and Islam by some their top most spokespersons and the answer will become very clear:

Christianity


Islam

Hinduism


If you think these are equivalent then you are blind.

#75

One thing becomes absolutely clear by comparing these three discourses.

First let us examine the Christian and Islamic ones:

  1. The Christians and Muslims preachers are more interested in destroying and each others relgiion, ironically using the same reasons against one another. Hypocrisy.
    Zakir Naik points out the the flat earth theory in the bible, not realising that the Quran itself mentions flat earth theory :smiley:

  2. The violent tendencies is very clear in the forcefulness of the preaching. In the Chrisitian video above the preacher is saying, “I want to punch his face out” and the mindless repetition of “HE IS THE WAY” and uncritical appreciation by the audience.

  3. There is an absolute reliance on scripture and copious amounts of quotations are made from scripture

Now compare it to the Hindu discourses.

  1. There is no attempt at destroying any other religion or faith. The entire emphasis is on the subject matter which is about spirituality, personal development and practical methods to do that. There seems to be no interest at all in attacking the beliefs of others.

  1. There is no violence in the teaching or aggression. The speakers are calm, humerous and relaxed and are speaking slowly and clearly using logical arguments, examples and speaking to the reason in the audience. The audience is therefore given the opportunity to critically assess what is being said.

  2. There is virtually no quotation from any scripture.

It becomes very clear why Hindus are so cool.

#76

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;33958]Actually the people are a reflection of their religion.[/QUOTE]

This is still not evidence for God. I like that Hindu guy on the Youtube clip. I have even taken notes in the past about some things he said, that I liked. I like Hindus. I like BKS Iyengar, I like Ravi Shankar, I like Gandhi. I like all my Hindu friends. But that’s not evidence for God. Cool does not equal evidence for God. Clever, rich, educated, Loving, does not equal evidence for God. I have never seen any evidence to support the metaphysical claims made by any religious believers. This is because, God is just pretend. I doubt that you are actually convinced of the idea God yourself, because you are going to suspicious lengths to convince me that your right. If you really were convinced that there is a God, you would be too secure to seek so desperately for others to agree with you.

#77

Yogiadam the ultimate teaching of Hindusim is there is no god. I am not trying to convince you there is a god, why should I? We believe god is nothing more than a potential within us. This is why Hinduism is a religion of the “self” We place the self at the centre of religion and its observation, reason and direct experience as proof.

I have long rejected god. Many learned Hindus are actually atheist. We are monists. That is we declare
"All is Brahman" All is the same consciousnes or impersonal force, the ultimate reality. So god is not some person somewhere, but
a state of realization that we can all tune into and from that get abundant knowledge, wisdom and love.

The great teachings of Hinduism are:

prajnānam brahma: "Brahman is knowledge"
ayam ātmā brahma: "The Self (or the Soul) is Brahman "
aham brahmāsmi: "I am Brahman"
tat tvam asi: "Thou art that"
sarvam khalv idam brahma: “All this that we see in the world is Brahman”,
sachchidānanda brahma: “Brahman is existence, consciousness, and bliss”.

It is a state of our being. Not a god.

#78

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;33958]
What do Christians have to show for themselves? About 2000 years of intolerance, persecution of others who thought differently, inquisitions, suppression of progress.[/QUOTE]

Old western proverb: “People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.” (or is that Russian?)

#79

Flex, can you show me 2000 years of intolerance, persecution, inqusitions, suppression of progress by Hindus. It has been widely accepted that Hinduism has had a history of tolerance for other religions. We have had Christians, Zoroastrians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Jains and Sikhs living alongside with us for thousands of years. Never did they ever had to face inquisitions or persecution or suppression.

#80

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;33966]Yogiadam the ultimate teaching of Hindusim is there is no god. We believe god is nothing more than a potential within us.

I have long rejected god. Many learned Hindus are actually atheist. [/QUOTE]

Ok, so your an atheist. I was not aware of that. So you still like to use the word God. But you used it to define human potential. Ok, well if God is defined as human potential, then that’s perfectly plausible. I, however will use the term ‘human potential’ when talking about human potential, as it would get very confusing for the person whom which I am conversing with.
Similarly, a friend of mine said ‘God is nature’. However, we do have a word for ‘nature’ already. It called ‘nature’. If I was to go around referring to ‘nature’ or ‘human potential’ as ‘god’, that would cause a lot of confusion.