Westerners approaching non-Western traditions

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#53

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;33853]Couldn’t agree more with Siva and YogiAdam. I think, contrary to what has been mentioned we all value Hinduism and what it has given us. In the end, it shouldn’t matter who is right, who is wrong, who started what etc. It only matters what is in our hearts.[/QUOTE]

This is new-age fluff talk.

What matters is what the actual text is saying. Yoga is a serious and highly technical science not new-age fluff. If you want to learn Yoga you learn it from the authentic source, not a fluffy new age book in a mind-body-spirit section in a bookstore.

#54

It was me. I stole the yoga! I crept into your tent while you sat in lotus thinking of new ways to fine-tune your caste system and subjegate your women.

There’s nothing you can do. The damage is already done. No one saw me coming - the rust of banisters, briefcases, and the dollar on my hands. You were laid back against the wall of familiar habits.

I stole the precious yoga and played with it like a ball of pleistocene. I took magic markers and drew wild patterns on its surface. Then I threw it against the wall and it shattered into a million pieces. I took the fragments and gave one to my neighbour, who put a hand to her brow and whispered a prayer that breathed fire into it and turned it into a butterfly, and it flew out lighting up the valley below. I gave another piece to my grocer who took a bite and grew tall. He shared it with his wife who gave some to her lover, healing her instantly. I gave some to a child and she poked and proded and stretched it into shapes unknown to me. The rest I cast out of the window creating an awesome wall of white bubbles a hundred feel tall obscuring the telephone poles.

One piece remains on the floor forgotten and untouched, lost in the laughter of friendly conspiracies. The one-time key to sovereign dreams now a shape, nothing but a shape. I bend down and pick up the shard and cut my finger on the rusted edges as with the sharpness of a knife.

I stole the yoga, and you cannot have it back. All you can do now is make some tea and wait for the low hum of talk outside to rise.

#55

:smiley:

Your’re lucky I am a Hindu with a sense of humour :wink:

Just a word of caution Hindus do not take nonsense now days. We are an upcoming superpower in this century and we are very proud. Upseting the Hindus would be like upsetting the Chinese. Of course we are a culture of ahimsa and will always look for peaceful options, but push us too far, we can take to violence and be as extreme as the worst of them out there. I do not support violence myself and will always look for peaceful options.

The recent actions of India patenting Yoga and Ayurvedic drugs is an indication that Hindus wll fight when push comes to shove :smiley:

#56

[quote=siva;33826]Surya Deva,

You miss my point completely, which is it doesn’t matter where it came from or who invented it, A2+B2=C2 and I don’t have to know where, or who, or why, or how. It works without my knowing these things, and so does yoga. It has no borders. That doesn’t mean it’s not a Hindu creation, or that Pythagorian theorem is not actually Hindu, which doesn’t surprise me, it simply means it’s not important to understand all of the philosophy, language, history, culture, etc., as you say, to make it work. It’s not necessary because it’s universal.

Your agenda is very clear but unmoving.

Ugh!
siva[/quote]

And what pray exactly is your own agenda,Siva?

All i have seen in your posts is what comes across as largely sarcasm and ridicule. And i can’t help but feel this must say volumes about your own practice, spiritual development or whatever.

Whatever you call yourself, a yoga teacher , you can come across as pretty arrogant at times.

Your unwillingness to learn is very unyogic and definitely stubborn.Maybe if your dropped that facade, or false sense of self, you might learn more.

The absence of an effective meditation practice is glaringly obvious in you, and whatever your sadhana might be.:cool:

#57

Just a word of caution Hindus do not take nonsense now days. We are an upcoming superpower in this century and we are very proud. Upseting the Hindus would be like upsetting the Chinese. Of course we are a culture of ahimsa and will always look for peaceful options, but push us too far, we can take to violence and be as extreme as the worst of them out there. I do not support violence myself and will always look for peaceful options.

The recent actions of India patenting Yoga and Ayurvedic drugs is an indication that Hindus wll fight :D[/QUOTE]

As an Arab with a sense of humour, you are lucky I do not accept this as a challenge:mad:

#58

The recent actions of India patenting Yoga [/QUOTE]

I also have no doubt whatsoever that this is an opportunistic move on India’s part to capitalize on the burgeoning billion dollar industry that yoga has become. They wanting their piece of the pie, as it were. I do not buy into the ‘rescuing yoga from filthy western hands’ for a second.

#59

SD- Your constant misunderstanding of what people are saying is curious indeed. I am trying very hard, I mean very hard, to be open minded and compassionate. Your anger and lack of compassion is something I shall pray for. Why would you treat me, or anyone else the way you have? You assume I learned yoga from a new age book. I have been a practitioner most of my (52) years and I teacher for over 5. I studied and took my training from a Hindu who came to US about 15 years ago. When I have mentioned this before you found reason to tell me that whatever training I got we not correct. How would you know? You think I should go back to basics, you don’t want to waste your time with me, you think I don’t understand yoga and the insults go on. Why? Why can’t we discuss and be civil while having differing views? In the West, the way I have been talked to by you would be considered disrespectful. I do not know everything. I never professed that I do. I am always seeking. I want to learn. I want to be open to new ideas. Your thread was started, in part, by our discussions and I find your arrogant attitude toward me and others not encouraging meaningful discussion. This is truly sad. We all could learn so much from each other. Again, I pray for you.

#60

[QUOTE=FlexPenguin;33867]I also have no doubt whatsoever that this is an opportunistic move on India’s part to capitalize on the burgeoning billion dollar industry that yoga has become. They wanting their piece of the pie, as it were. I do not buy into the ‘rescuing yoga from filthy western hands’ for a second.[/QUOTE]

It is possible. Hindus are very sharp when it comes to business sense. If there is a potential profit to be made, Hindus will jump on it :smiley:

The patent however is more about preventing Westerners from plagiarizing Hindu discoveries which is what Western companies have been doing recently. For example they filed for a patent on tumeric as a medicinal drug, and as soon as the Hindus learned of this they were obviously incensed and appealed against the patent as they have been using tumeric for thousands of years as a medicinal drug.

The recent abomination called Christian Yoga, possibly the most shamless Western attempt at appropriating Yoga is one of the many reasons why Hindus have taken to these measures. And the fact is the world will listen to us because they depend on our economy and the services we provide. If push came to shove we would withdraw our services. So Hindus can play tough if they want to.

I think what India is doing is great for defending Hindu intellectual property.

#61

You assume I learned yoga from a new age book. I have been a practitioner most of my (52) years and I teacher for over 5. I studied and took my training from a Hindu who came to US about 15 years ago. When I have mentioned this before you found reason to tell me that whatever training I got we not correct. How would you know? You think I should go back to basics, you don’t want to waste your time with me, you think I don’t understand yoga and the insults go on.

Apologies, but this was not apparent in the answer you gave. “It does not matter who is right or wrong or who started what, it only matter whats is in our hearts” This sounded like the classical cop-out of a fluffy new-ager.

Of course it matters who is right and and who is wrong and who discovered it. Yoga is a highly technical science which has been developed over 5000 years(or more) in India by several researchers. It has both an exact theory an an exact system of practice and all its core texts are Hindu. This is the unique contribution of Hindus to the world. It’s not a fluffy “something you know in the heart” It is an exact science.

Do you know quantum mechanics in your heart as well? Would you say it does not matter what is right or wrong in quantum mechanics or who started it?

#62

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;33873] If push came to shove we would withdraw our services.[/QUOTE]

Does this mean an end to annoying telemarketers trying to sell me new visa cards? Halleluah and erin go bragh.

#63

SD- Thanks for the apology. Very nice, really.

I know yoga is Hindu. That was never disputed. I know, albeit not as much as you, the general history of yoga and Hinduism. I honor and appreciate their contributions and customs. All I’m trying to say is that people follow many paths to get to the same place (at least hopefully). We are all trying to be better people, reach nirvana, drop our veils, etc. If our heart and motives are pure in trying to reach that end does it really matter what religion you follow? If there is a God, he is a just and loving God. He will accept people for what is in their hearts rather than only one religion. So, the way I see it there is no right or wrong on anything. There is always more than one way to look at something. We are not to judge.

I understand you look at yoga as a science. It is part of your religion. That is wonderful and right for you. While I don’t doubt it is a science it has so many benefits that it needs to be shared throughout the world. If someone is practicing yoga and is also on a spiritual path, there may be differences in what we call certain things or how we perceive EGO (tee-hee couldn’t resist) but we are aiming for something very similar.

#64

[QUOTE=FlexPenguin;33875]Does this mean an end to annoying telemarketers trying to sell me new visa cards? Halleluah and erin go bragh.[/QUOTE]

Our services go well beyond just call centres :smiley: We are doing most of the research and development in information technology, software development and solutions and now animation, graphics and multimedia. We are also leading researchers in stemcell research and other biotechnologies. Now we are become hubs for hardware manufacture like cars, aerospace and telecommunications technology. We are collaborating with the very best in the world in scientific research. We are amongst the top 5 countries in the world today when it comes to science and technology and can even build our own supercomputers, flight engines and weapons. Hindus have always been at the forefront of science and we are getting back there.

The progress we have made considering how destitute the British left us when we gained independence is very impressive and makes Hindus proud. Now about 70% of Indians are literate(some states have 90+% literacy) and about 500 million Indians are middle-class. We have the most billionaries in Asia and soon the world and our economy is about to outgrow Japan.

It is a silly stereotype that India is only booming because of call centers lol :smiley:

#65

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;33878]We have the most billionaries in Asia and soon the world and our economy is about to outgrow Japan.[/QUOTE]

I bet the Shudras and Chandalas are all sitting around toasting that little revelation.

Before you begin to show me how my ignorance is based on stereotyped racist hyperbole, I want to point out that anyone can stand on one foot with his forefinger pointed at the sky while extolling the extraordinary virtues of his maternal heritage, but who cares? I have yet known anyone from India that can make a scotch that rivals those on the Isle of Skye. Now, there is a thing!

#66

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;33706]
I am afraid this is exactly what is happening when Western people impose their cultural understanding on Hindu cultural notions like Yoga. So a highly technical concept like say “Purusha and Prakriti” become translated as “Spirit and Matter” and in Western culture this is synonymous with psyche/mind and matter. When this is not at all what Purusha and Prakriti is.
[/QUOTE]

Your fears are unfounded and your judgement is faulty. Spirit and Matter is not synonymous with psyche/mind and matter.

Purusha is the pure consciousness and Prakriti is the content of pure consciousness which exists as a potential state.

This is probably an acceptable statement if we consider that in the Bhagavad Gita, Prakriti is called the field and Purusa is the knower of the field. Notice that here I use the term Prakriti to refer to all 24 principles of material nature in their manifested states. The word Prakriti is often used to refer to the whole of material nature, and this is correct because Prakriti is considered to be pervasive throughout material nature. When you say that Prakriti only exists as a potential state, you are referring only to the root Prakriti, which is another sense of the word. The technical meaning of Prakriti is “that which brings forth”, or the mother principle. That is why the Bhagavad Gita, the Upanishads, and Samkhya literature all mention eight Prakritis.

Do you now see the rope, where you thought there was a snake?

#67

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;33852]It is to set the record straight. Yoga is a non-western tradition and if you are going to approach Yoga you need to approach it in its culture.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, and you probably need to become an Indian citizen, and marry a Hindu to teach Yoga, I suppose. It’s too late!! Yoga has changed. You have to accept that. Things in life change. Some people do meditation without becoming a Buddhist, and Yoga is the same now.

#68

When you say that Prakriti only exists as a potential state, you are referring only to the root Prakriti, which is another sense of the word. The technical meaning of Prakriti is “that which brings forth”, or the mother principle. That is why the Bhagavad Gita, the Upanishads, and Samkhya literature all mention eight Prakritis.

That is what prakriti really means. The rest are evolutes of prakriti. This is why the 24 tattvas of Samkhya mention Prakriti as the 24th tattva which then manifests and transforms into the evolutes: 23rd is Buddhi, 22nd is ahmakara and so on.

The unmanifest and root prakriti which is where the gunas are is real prakriti. I have told you before it is an inferred entity because it is supersensible.

You will find the first description of prakriti in the Vedas where she is also represented as Aditi(the infinite and boundless, mother principle) and then Aditi gives birth to the Adityas the first Aditya is Indra. Indra unleashes the cosmic waters(soma synonymous with apas) causing existence to manifest. The next aditya is agni which forms from the cosmic waters. Then follows Mitra-Varuna and so on. The same evolutionary scheme of Samkhya is being described beginning with the mother principle and the birth of the rest of the cosmos from her.

There is also a description of the same in the Nasadiya Suktam and the Purusha Suktam.

There are several different discriptions of the same such as the Durga Suktam describing the 9 forms of Shakti(again transformations of prakriti)

#69

The Shudras are basically labourers and labourers have always existed side by side with rich merchants. They serve different functions in society. There is no category for Chandals in the Hindu caste system. This was a category that was developed later by Indian society for certain people who were untouchable because of the polluting jobs they did like grave digging, sewer cleaning etc. Even we to an extent keep distance from people like this.

In any case everybody in India will benefit from the increasing affluent population who are driving the Indian economy today.

In the end I would like to see the capitalist system scrapped and the Hindu varnashram dharma system adopted again. Capitalism is a system of exploitation and it is fundamentally anti-hindu in its principles. India was more prosperous under Hindu systems than it has been under Western systems.

I want to see a full return to Hindu systems. The restoration of the Hindu education system, Hindu healthcare, Hindu architecture and townplanning and Hindu arts combined with modern technology. Hindus should once again lead the world like they did in the past. It should lead by example.

#70

Good job, Surya Deva.

You licked them fair & square.

And exposed them for the bigoted small-minded hypocirts they really are.

Ugh

Core789

Happy Days Everyone

#71

[QUOTE=core789;33921]Good job, Surya Deva.

You licked them fair & square.

And exposed them for the bigoted small-minded hypocirts they really are.

Ugh
[/QUOTE]

Small minded! Small minded is believing something without evidence, with is what being done. ANYONE can just assert religious dogma.

#72

White supremacist's rant :rolleyes:

don't you think you're generalizing here a bit??

anyway, here's something to add to your woes:

The richest European is a devout Hindu

since majority of scientists & doctors & engineers in India are born in Hindu families, no one should object if I credit Indian hindus for any worthwhile contribution of India.

Indian hindus develops solar powered touchscreen laptop at less than $35

India double billionaires (all except one Indian billionaire are Hindus & a few Jains)

Circa 2017: Indian billionaire club to be world's biggest
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/news-by-company/corporate-trends/Circa-2017-Indian-billionaire-club-to-be-worlds-biggest/articleshow/2987745.cms

Indian(Hindu)-origin executives head a dozen Fortune 500 firms

NASA pros send resumes to India (I wonder why?)
http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed/bangalore/NASA-pros-send-resumes-to-India/Article1-347387.aspx

Wonders of Vedic math
http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Indian-students-swear-by-Vedic-maths/357240/1/

Bill gates follows Vedic wisdom
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Infotech/Software/Geek_god_Gates_follows_Vedic_wisdom/articleshow/3175391.cms

Role of Hinduism in world economics
http://www.helium.com/items/562442-the-role-of-hinduism-in-world-economics

Time and Reincarnation

U.S. Buddhists, Hindus Back Evolution, Says Study
http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=5dbb57b1707ee3b07cb20c2abc5994e4