What is Enlightenment?


#201

GREATEST THREAD EVER.

S.D. the BRuce has four arms and skull cup. From which he drinks the blood nectar of his victims! He isn’t always right - but he brings a smile to my face, and provides me with and this forum with much richness.

Physics with Fred

Physics with Q.

Dharma vs West with Q.

Sanity with Amir!

Very entertaining!

The following quote I judge to be best based on the undeniable fact that it made me laugh out loud when I first read it and still does when I think about it. The effect is so good - because it was set up so well.

You remind me of those moments when you wake up in the morning thinking you have come to a very profound truth, quickly fumble for a notepad so that you do not forget and then write, “2+2 = 4”


#202

Clash of civilisations: Indian culture vs Western culture

The following are widely recognised to be characteristic in being defining features of their culture and very popular cultural forms.

[B]Dance:[/B]



vs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEl8_3hrfG8&feature=related

[B]Music:[/B]




(Read the lyrics)

vs




Compare the lyrics, rhythm, melody, music, ethos, quality :wink:

[B]Cuisine: [/B]

Google image Indian food

vs

Go[ogle image Western food](http://Google image Western food http://www.google.co.uk/search?um=1&hl=en&rlz=1R2RNTN_enGB378&biw=1106&bih=577&site=search&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=western+food&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=)

[B]Clothing:[/B]

Googe image Indian clothes

vs

(By the way most of the pictures were too lewd to post here, so I chose this one as it was one of the least offensive. If you would like to see others, please click here)

[B]Health:[/B]

vs

[B]Customs and values:[/B]

Namaste or Pranam --How we greet each other in India.

To greet a friend or another Indian, We join our hands (palms together), bow down in front of the other person, and say Namaste, Namaskar, or Pranam.

The Lord dwells in the heart of every human being. This joining of hands symbolizes the meeting of two souls, our real self actually meets Itself. This signifies reverent Salutations and Unity of Souls.

Bowing down & joining hands symbolizes humility and also makes us humble. Thus when we joins our hands and say Namaskar, we actually see the Lord in the other persons and believe, “I bow with deep respects to the all-loving, all-powerful and omnipresent (present everywhere) Lord in you.”

vs

What sup, Hello, Hi

Miscellenious:

Indian culture treats guests as god and serves them and takes care of them as if they are a part and parcel of the family itself. Even though we don’t have anything to eat, the guests are never left hungry and are always looked after by the members of the family. Elders and the respect for elders is a major component in Indian culture. Elders are the driving force for any family and hence the love and respect for elders comes from within and is not artificial. An individual takes blessings from his elders by touching their feet. Elders drill and pass on the Indian culture within us as we grow.

“Respect one another” is another lesson that is taught from the books of Indian culture. All people are alike and respecting one another is ones duty. In foreign countries the relation between the boss and the employee is like a master and slave and is purely monetary whereas in Indian culture the relation between the boss and the employee is more like homely relations unlike foreign countries.

Helpful nature is another striking feature in our Indian culture. Right from our early days of childhood we are taught to help one another in need of help and distress. If not monetary then at least in kind or non-monetary ways. Indian culture tells us to multiply and distribute joy and happiness and share sadness and pain. It tells us that by all this we can develop co-operation and better living amongst ourselves and subsequently make this world a better place to live in.

It is customary to respect elders and touch their feet as to seek their blessings. Occasions or festivals demand a lot of participation in terms of rangoli drawing, diyas and an array of yummy treats made in the authentic variety as per the caste and geography. Hindu rituals are a lot about song and dance and each family has a natural way to adjust to these formats. It is a ritual to pray to the Goddess of learning Ma Saraswathi to achieve success. Similarly business people always insist on drawing the Swastika which marks prosperity and worship the Goddess of wealth.

http://www.indianchild.com/culture%20_1.htm

vs

Kill the pagans/idolars/heathens, exploit and rape foreign lands, stab your host in the back, and force your way onto them

Call your parents by their name and go out pubbling and clubbing with your parents and teachers. Only in the West:


#203

Now, you know I am no relativist and you know I must give a commentary on everything - so here I go :smiley: It is obvious to me from the above how vastly superior Indian culture is - it is more nuanced, more complex, more refined, more rich in everything you can see. The dance is more expressive and uses the entire body eyes, face, expressions, hands, legs, even fingers, very slightly finger movements convey a sense, it even utilises very gracefully Yoga postures in smoothe movement. It brings out the sensuality in the women dancing in the clip without coming across as lewd. On the other hand, poledancing which is now a popular form of dance in the West is nothing but lewd. I also referenced Madonna, Rhiana and Jennifer Lopez, and it does not go amiss that the main emotion being created is lust.

The music is a lot more melodious, the scale far more complex with very subtle tones, and rhymic and the lyrics are beautifully poetic - “In you I see god, I don’t know what to do; I feel like bowing to you” “In your love I am destroyed” compared to crass nonsensical, “O na na, whats my name” or “La la, go go gagga”

The clothing is more graceful and cultured covering the womans sexual parts like her breasts and yet still allowing her to be beautiful and enchanting. In contrast we have the women clearly showing their breasts, looking like skeletons with barely any curves and nothing much left to the imagination. It’s crude and classless.

The cuisine is very diverse and rich clearly showcasing a rich pallete of spices, flavours and aromas. In contrast you have a putrid slab of flesh in a bun with some fries, the leading cause of obesity and health problems in the West today. The words “you are what you eat” come to mind.

Health is seen more as how healthy are you spiritually and mentally. How calm is your mind and clean is your heart. In contrast you have a gym full of machines and weights to bulk up your body and develop your body in an unnatural way.

The customs are vastly more civilised. Elders are respected and their teachings sought, as opposed to throwing the elders in old age home and letting them wither way. Guests are treated with utmost hospitability and treated like gods, even if it means that you don’t have enough to eat for yourself. The blessing of parents are sought and the children respect them and bow before them and touch their feet with their hands. Families stay together and all festivals, and occasions are celeberated together.

It is easy to see this is a vastly superior culture from a vastly superior civilisation. More advanced, more refined, more developed, more civilised. The West has got it the wrong way around - it is not their “burden” - but ours to civilise them :smiley: :wink:


#204

Surya,

You are simply speaking from the prejudice of your identification with the East. The fact is that both the East and the West have qualities which the other lacks, and unless these qualities are balanced and brought into equilibrium with one another - both the East and the West are going to be missing something essential to man becoming a wholesome being.


#205

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;58516][SIZE=“6”]

Call your parents by their name and go out pubbling and clubbing with your parents and teachers. Only in the West:

Jerry Springer lolx :lol: Epic :grin: Tho’ I am sure India must have its own Bollywood version of Jerry Springer


#206

Your intention is good, but all the nasty things in the world had begun with good intentions. You gotta be careful with this stuff.

My objective introspection on your rationale is that the danger in your stuff lies in “dyeing” the Western culture with Indian colours." No. You cannot propose such a thing. Because this is pretty much what Adolf Hitler was about to do.

By anology,

West’s cultural colour is blue
East’s cultural colour is purple

You can mix these together only to a certain extent; but you cannot take one colour as the one to best the other colour. If thats your intention, it sounds like you want to take revenge from West.

If you fight fire with fire, in the end, there will be more fire that could burn everything down to ashes.


#207

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;58516][SIZE=“6”]
[B]Dance:[/B]



vs


Surely, you do discount a graceful Western dance like Waltz

[B]Music:[/B]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4io-dRdpUB0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtlxvRlNsec&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHE-WVRjFa4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFIyYs2afPo

(Read the lyrics)

vs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAqMXBIUisA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4H_Zoh7G5A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrO4YZeyl0I&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e82VE8UtW8A&feature=related

Compare the lyrics, rhythm, melody, music, ethos, quality :wink:

Again, you do discount Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner, Rossini, Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock etc.

I’m sure there must also be some pretty shitty Indian trash music around…

[B]Cuisine: [/B]

Google image Indian food

vs

Go[ogle image Western food](http://Google image Western food http://www.google.co.uk/search?um=1&hl=en&rlz=1R2RNTN_enGB378&biw=1106&bih=577&site=search&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=western+food&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=)

You do discount, for example, the Italian food most of us adore:

[B]Clothing:[/B]

Googe image Indian clothes

vs

(By the way most of the pictures were too lewd to post here, so I chose this one as it was one of the least offensive. If you would like to see others, please click here)

This is a very stereotypical example. Fashion choices vary greatly in Western culture and immensely richer than India as it is today. It looks like Indian culture is a rather poor example…

[B]Health:[/B]

vs

Gym is a great way to keep health. In the West, sporting tradition produces healthy human beings. India is rather poor when it comes to sports…

[B]Customs and values:[/B]

Namaste or Pranam --How we greet each other in India.

To greet a friend or another Indian, We join our hands (palms together), bow down in front of the other person, and say Namaste, Namaskar, or Pranam.

The Lord dwells in the heart of every human being. This joining of hands symbolizes the meeting of two souls, our real self actually meets Itself. This signifies reverent Salutations and Unity of Souls.

Bowing down & joining hands symbolizes humility and also makes us humble. Thus when we joins our hands and say Namaskar, we actually see the Lord in the other persons and believe, “I bow with deep respects to the all-loving, all-powerful and omnipresent (present everywhere) Lord in you.”

vs

What sup, Hello, Hi

Again, I am sure the former is not the case in today’s India. But I give you a point in this. Greetings could be more meaningful…

Miscellenious:

Indian culture treats guests as god and serves them and takes care of them as if they are a part and parcel of the family itself. Even though we don’t have anything to eat, the guests are never left hungry and are always looked after by the members of the family. Elders and the respect for elders is a major component in Indian culture. Elders are the driving force for any family and hence the love and respect for elders comes from within and is not artificial. An individual takes blessings from his elders by touching their feet. Elders drill and pass on the Indian culture within us as we grow.

“Respect one another” is another lesson that is taught from the books of Indian culture. All people are alike and respecting one another is ones duty. In foreign countries the relation between the boss and the employee is like a master and slave and is purely monetary whereas in Indian culture the relation between the boss and the employee is more like homely relations unlike foreign countries.

Helpful nature is another striking feature in our Indian culture. Right from our early days of childhood we are taught to help one another in need of help and distress. If not monetary then at least in kind or non-monetary ways. Indian culture tells us to multiply and distribute joy and happiness and share sadness and pain. It tells us that by all this we can develop co-operation and better living amongst ourselves and subsequently make this world a better place to live in.

It is customary to respect elders and touch their feet as to seek their blessings. Occasions or festivals demand a lot of participation in terms of rangoli drawing, diyas and an array of yummy treats made in the authentic variety as per the caste and geography. Hindu rituals are a lot about song and dance and each family has a natural way to adjust to these formats. It is a ritual to pray to the Goddess of learning Ma Saraswathi to achieve success. Similarly business people always insist on drawing the Swastika which marks prosperity and worship the Goddess of wealth.

http://www.indianchild.com/culture%20_1.htm

vs

Kill the pagans/idolars/heathens, exploit and rape foreign lands, stab your host in the back, and force your way onto them

Call your parents by their name and go out pubbling and clubbing with your parents and teachers. Only in the West:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvlm2LEpKQs

Rather untrue. There are good family traditions in West. Perhaps not specifically in America…

It seems like you are actually contesting the “American” culture, rather than the rest of the West.

Is West mean America to you?

Because, I do include Europe in the Western equation as well. And I do prefer European culture over America, for Europe is quite different to the notorious American restlessness.

Your comparisons lack sensibility and are rather obtuse…


#208

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;58544]Surya,

You are simply speaking from the prejudice of your identification with the East. The fact is that both the East and the West have qualities which the other lacks, and unless these qualities are balanced and brought into equilibrium with one another - both the East and the West are going to be missing something essential to man becoming a wholesome being.[/QUOTE]

10 points to Amir here. You shouldn’t start down a path of vengeance game Surya. It aint worth your time… go now, seek for the answers within before the doom of our tyme.


#209

You miss the point :stuck_out_tongue:

The point is to show popular cultural forms and defining features of Western and Indian culture today. As somebody living in the West, born and bought up in the West, I know what is popular “culture”(I use the term loosely here)

Waltz is no longer a popular dance form of Western culture. Riana, Madonna, Jennifer Lopez are - or basically the MTV culture - are a indeed very popular dance forms in the West. The dance culture of the West is very much informed by artists like them. Poledancing is indeed a big activity today and you can learn poledancing at your local community college. This is why most clubs have poles in them for people to dance around poles. The quality they bring out is lust.

I posted dance forms of India which are popular today and they bring out the quality of grace, elegance and poise. The dance of India is based on Natyashastra where dancing was used as a yoga to connect to the divine. It is basically yoga in motion. It utilises Yoga postures and Yoga mudras. The entire body is used not just the hips, even very subtle expressions of the eyes, slight finger movements. It is definitely a more refined and sophisticated dance form. Most Indian dance is romantic, graceful movements to convey emotions of love.

Beethoven and Mozart are not popular Western music fom today. Popular Western music is indeed about hip hop, pop, punk, rock - MTV = and this brings out the quality of violence, ignorance stupidity - the sms generation that have low attention spans and speak in abbreviations :smiley:

I posted music of India which is popular today and they bring out the quality of melody, poetry and depth. Most of them are again romantic and bring out the quality of love, affection, kinship and union.

The most popular Western food is indeed burgers and fries, big macs, KFCS, pizzas and soda drinks. I posted food of India which is popular today and every Indian get served in the home. Morever, Indian food based on a deep philosophy as well, 6 tastes must be present in every meal in order to balance the gunas in the body. Hence why Indian cuisine is so rich and sought after. There is nothing like this in Western food.

The most popular Western clothing is indeed bikinis, short skirts, and tight tops - in general Western clothing dresses you down and again bring out the quality of lust. This is very easy to see by going on a night out and seeing women walking about showing off their legs and their boobs even in cold weather.

I posted clothes of India which are popular which dress you up and bring out the quality of character and chasity. Indian dress is rich in texture and colour and convey class and character. Indian women when going out to weddings, birthday parties or even to watch Bollywood films wear these clothes.

Gyms are indeed the most popular form of health management in the West. They do not produce healthy people necessarily, but bulky people(men) or anorexic people(women) and focus on simply how you look to increase your sex appeal. It is all very physical.

I posted the popular and still popular Indian form of health management which focusses on holistic development of the mind-body and spirit. Health is not seen as how sexy you look to others, but how clean your mind and and heart is and how relaxed your body is. It is obvious Yoga is a superior form of health management - othewise why would there be such a craze for it in the West, that it would even divide religions :smiley:

Wus sup, hello, hi are popular forms of greetings in the West. They are meaningless and do convey any sense of gratitude or respect for another person.

In contrast Indian greetings show not only respect and gratitude to the other person, they also convey a deeper philosophy that we see the divine in everybody and consider every being divine.

Western family customs, or rather what is left of them are sparse. The majority of families are nuclear families, elderly people are not respected but thrown into an old age home when they reach a certain age because they become liability to the family. The divorce rates are 50% or higher. Children do not respect their parents, call their parents by their name and live like individuals in their own home. When they reach the age of 16-18 they get thrown out to live by themselves. Most families are dysfunctional. Most children barely interact with their parents, spend most of their time in their room and socialise with their friends in pubs, clubs, bars and malls. American beauty particularly depicts this breakdown of the family in Western surbabia.

In India still today one lives in a joint family with their parents, uncles and aunties - which mean Indian life is very family centered. There is a very strong respect for elders which we convey by touching their feet and asking for their blessings and including them in all decisions we make(Most Indian families also have a family guru) The divorce rate in India is 1% and statistically Indian marriages are succesful. The children are always interacting with their parents and the family together celeberate festivals and occasions, always go out with each other. Hospitality is very high. If you go to an Indian house you will almost always be offered food and drink, even if you want to a poor person’s house. It is ingrained in the culture that the guest is like a form of god.

There is simply no comparison :stuck_out_tongue:

I am not a relativist so I do not hestitate from declaring my culture is superior. You would also not be a relativist if you visited an advanced alien planet and were exposed to their cultural forms. Everything would be a lot more refined, sophisticated and based on higher values - just like Indian culture.

Although I admit Western culture does have more noble cultural forms like waltz dance, fine wine, cheese and crossiants food, they are not the defining and most popular cultural forms. The truth be is the West today is all about Mcdonalds, Madonna, bikinis and sleaze, dysfunctional families and debauchery. Ask any non-Western person and they tell you similar things.


#210

By the way this comparison was motivated by Q calling Western culture Deva today and Indian culture Asura. So the Western culture of burger and fries muching, beer drinking, iron-pumping, MTV watching, dysfunctional families with barely any manners or customs, call their parents by their names, dispose of their elders when they get too old is Deva? And Indian culture of fine and rich cuisine, graceful and elegant dancing, yoga and meditation, family values and respect for parents and elders is Asura?

Haha, give men a break :stuck_out_tongue:


#211

This time my answer will be graphics…


#212

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;58603]You miss the point :stuck_out_tongue:

The point is to show popular cultural forms and defining features of Western and Indian culture today. As somebody living in the West, born and bought up in the West, I know what is popular “culture”(I use the term loosely here)

Waltz is no longer a popular dance form of Western culture. Riana, Madonna, Jennifer Lopez are - or basically the MTV culture - are a indeed very a popular culture in the West. The dance culture of the West is very much informed by artists like them. Poledancing is indeed a big activity today and you can learn poledancing at your local community college. This is why most clubs have poles in them for people to dance around poles. The quality they bring out is lust.

I posted dance forms of India which are popular today and they bring out the quality of grace, elegance and poise. The dance of India is based on Natyashastra where dancing was used as a yoga to connect to the divine. It is basically yoga in motion. It utilises Yoga postures and Yoga mudras. The entire body is used not just the hips, even very subtle expressions of the eyes, slight finger movements. It is definitely a more refined and sophisticated dance form. Most Indian dance is romantic, graceful movements to convey emotions of love.

Beethoven and Mozart are not popular Western music fom today. Popular Western music is indeed about hip hop, pop, punk, rock - MTV = and this brings out the quality of violence, ignorance stupidity - the sms generation that have low attention spans and speak in abbreviations :smiley:

I posted music of India which is popular today and they bring out the quality of melody, poetry and depth. Most of them are again romantic and bring out the quality of love, affection, kinship and union.

The most popular Western food is indeed burgers and fries, big macs, KFCS, pizzas and soda drinks. I posted food of India which is popular today and every Indian get served in the home. Morever, Indian food based on a deep philosophy as well, 6 tastes must be present in every meal in order to balance the gunas in the body. Hence why Indian cuisine is so rich and sought after. There is nothing like this in Western food.

The most popular Western clothing is indeed bikinis, short skirts, and tight tops - in general Western clothing dresses you down and again bring out the quality of lust. This is very easy to see by going on a night out and seeing women walking about showing off their legs and their boobs even in cold weather.

I posted clothes of India which are popular which dress you up and bring out the quality of character and chasity. Indian dress is rich in texture and colour and convey class and character. Indian women when going out to weddings, birthday parties or even to watch Bollywood films wear these clothes.

Gyms are indeed the most popular form of health management in the West. They do not produce healthy people necessarily, but bulky people(men) or anorexic people(women) and focus on simply how you look to increase your sex appeal. It is all very physical.

I posted the popular and still popular Indian form of health management which focusses on holistic development of the mind-body and spirit. Health is not seen as how sexy you look to others, but how clean your mind and and heart is and how relaxed your body is. It is obvious Yoga is a superior form of health management - othewise why would there be such a craze for it in the West, that it would even divide religions :smiley:

Wus sup, hello, hi are popular forms of greetings in the West. They are meaningless and do convey any sense of gratitude or respect for another person.

In contrast Indian greetings show not only respect and gratitude to the other person, they also convey a deeper philosophy that we see the divine in everybody and consider every being divine.

Western family customs, or rather what is left of them are sparse. The majority of families are nuclear families, elderly people are not respected but thrown into an old age home when they reach a certain age because they become liability to the family. The divorce rates are 50% or higher. Children do not respect their parents, call their parents by their name and live like individuals in their own home. When they reach the age of 16-18 they get thrown out to live by themselves. Most families are dysfunctional. Most children barely interact with their parents, spend most of their time in their room and socialise with their friends in pubs, clubs, bars and malls. American beauty particularly depicts this breakdown of the family in Western surbabia.

In India still today one lives in a joint family with their parents, uncles and aunties - which mean Indian life is very family centered. There is a very strong respect for elders which we convey by touching their feet and asking for their blessings and including them in all decisions we make(Most Indian families also have a family guru) The divorce rate in India is 1% and statistically Indian marriages are succesful. The children are always interacting with their parents and the family do every together celeberate festivals and occasions, always go out with each other. Hospitality culture is very high. If you go to an Indian house you will almost always be offered food and drink, even if you want to a poor person’s house. It is ingrained in the culture that the guest is like a form of god.

There is simply no comparison :stuck_out_tongue:

I am not a relativist so I do not hestitate from declaring my culture is superior. You would also not be a relativist if you visited an advanced alien planet and were exposed to their cultural forms. Everything would be a lot more refined, sophisticated and based on higher values - just like Indian culture.

Although I admit Western culture does have more noble cultural forms like waltz dance, fine wine, cheese and crossiants food, they are not the defining and most popular cultural forms. The truth be is the West today is all about Mcdonalds, Madonna, bikinis and sleaze, dysfunctional families and debauchery. Ask any non-Western person and they tell you similar things.[/QUOTE]

Surya Deva,

I honestly think you are comparing apples and oranges here - of course “Western” popular culture cannot compare to the classical arts of India, and in the same way it is impossible to judge the works of, e.g., modern dance choreographer Martha Graham by the same standards as any Bollywood item no.

How is a stanapatta any different from a bikini top? How are songs like Munni or Ringa Ringa worse than those of Lady Gaga?
No, Beethoven and Mozart are not producing hit music today, but Bharatanatyam isn’t a new invention either. The latter probably is what it is today only because of some very hard-working groups of people who didn’t want to see the dance traditions disappear. And these people were not only Indian. Also keep in mind that the dance style has changed considerably in the last 200 years, and it is still changing. The history and traditions of art music in ze “West” are well researched and respected, even today, and art music (‘classical’ music) is as present as ever. Though we had Modernism happening to it a while ago… :wink:

Culture = ever-changing flow. No matter where your roots are.


http://networkedblogs.com/h3zJx





http://www.navhindtimes.in/panorama/rebirth-bharatanatyam-india

…And just to clarify, I do not have anything against Indian culture/art whether popular or classical. I dabble in both. I do not identify myself with most things on your list of “Western customs”, and I do not think I know everything about everyone. I have no interest in assuming that my dad beats yours.

Respectfully,
Pernilla


#213

[QUOTE=CityMonk;58605]This time my answer will be graphics…[/QUOTE]

:o

whats going on up there on top of his head? Who drew that?

did a buddha draw that?


#214

Namaste Nila,

With all due respect I am not comparing apples and oranges, I am comparing one culture to another culture. This is a valid comparison. Now, it so happens that our culture is still very much based on its classical roots, whereas Western culture has veered off considerably from its classical roots. This is actually a theme of our culture that we preserve ancient traditions and that is we are the only civilisation to have preserved a 10,000 year old culture in more or less the same form. Even the lifestyle of most Indians(who live in rural India) has changed little compared to the Indus valley days.

Why is this comparison important? It is important because we are living in a Western world today, it’s culture of MTV, sex, drugs and rock and roll, Mcdonalds and its values of individualism and systems of capitalism have spread like a virus everywhere on the planet. It is given legitimacy by calling it “modern” this suggests Western culture is superior because it is the modern development of human culture and all previous cultures on this planet are primitive. Read Q’s posts carefully, this is exactly what he is saying.

Western culture is responsible for the breakdown of families, for the vast social inequality in the world, for drug traffiking(since the Opium wars) making the current generation stupid and shallow, and polluting this planet, destroying it ecosystems and endangering the species of this planet. To put it bluntly, Western culture is a virus that is destroying humanity on this planet. It has spread even to the dharmic countries and is taking them over(divorce rates in India are climbing in proporation to Westernization)

This is why I am calling a spade a spade and bringing it to the attention to rational people that we need another culture - a dharmic culture. I am not the only one to come to this conclusion, but many Western intellectuals have suggested this. Hence, why it is important to show through rational dialogue that dharmic culture is superior and it the dharma way we need to adopt to bring peace and harmony to this planet.

Have you ever asked yourself why is everything in dharmic culture so much more advanced, rich, complex and textured than Western culture? Like for example Sanskrit, why is our language Sanskrit so advanced that it even gives competition to modern computer languages? Why have Western intellectuals called our philosophical systems the most “advanced metaphysics the human has ever conceived” Why is Yoga and Ayurveda so sought after, to the extent attempts at plagiarism are made. Why do Western astrologers who learn Vedic astrology speak in praise of it? Why do pionnering physicists in the West look to Vedic science? The answer is very simple: our culture is more advanced. The West is a backwards culture. This point needs to be understood, especially by Indian youth today seduced by Western culture. There has to be total renaissance of Vedic culture on this planet.


#215

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;58636]Namaste Nila,

With all due respect I am not comparing apples and oranges, I am comparing one culture to another culture. This is a valid comparison. Now, it so happens that our culture is still very much based on its classical roots, whereas Western culture has veered off considerably from its classical roots. This is actually a theme of our culture that we preserve ancient traditions and that is we are the only civilisation to have preserved a 10,000 year old culture in more or less the same form. Even the lifestyle of most Indians(who live in rural India) has changed little compared to the Indus valley days.

Why is this comparison important? It is important because we are living in a Western world today, it’s culture of MTV, sex, drugs and rock and roll, Mcdonalds and its values of individualism and systems of capitalism have spread like a virus everywhere on the planet. It is given legitimacy by calling it “modern” this suggests Western culture is superior because it is the modern development of human culture and all previous cultures on this planet are primitive. Read Q’s posts carefully, this is exactly what he is saying.

[B]Western culture is responsible for the breakdown of families, for the vast social inequality in the world, for drug traffiking(since the Opium wars) making the current generation stupid and shallow, and polluting this planet, destroying it ecosystems and endangering the species of this planet. To put it bluntly, Western culture is a virus that is destroying humanity on this planet. It has spread even to the dharmic countries and is taking them over(divorce rates in India are climbing in proporation to Westernization)[/B]

This is why I am calling a spade a spade and bringing it to the attention to rational people that we need another culture - a dharmic culture. I am not the only one to come to this conclusion, but many Western intellectuals have suggested this. Hence, why it is important to show through rational dialogue that dharmic culture is superior and it the dharma way we need to adopt to bring peace and harmony to this planet.

Have you ever asked yourself why is everything in dharmic culture so much more advanced, rich, complex and textured than Western culture? Like for example Sanskrit, why is our language Sanskrit so advanced that it even gives competition to modern computer languages? Why have Western intellectuals called our philosophical systems the most “advanced metaphysics the human has ever conceived” Why is Yoga and Ayurveda so sought after, to the extent attempts at plagiarism are made. Why do Western astrologers who learn Vedic astrology speak in praise of it? Why do pionnering physicists in the West look to Vedic science? The answer is very simple: our culture is more advanced. The West is a backwards culture. This point needs to be understood, especially by Indian youth today seduced by Western culture. There has to be total renaissance of Vedic culture on this planet.[/QUOTE]

YOU ARE RIGHT.

EVERY LAST WORD.

ITS AFU over here and it is infecting the whole world.

I hesitate to use the word Culture. There has to be a better word.

Sociological Condition

Sociological Status

When I think of culture I think of Art, Film, Music, Museums. Etc . . . Thats culture to me.

What do you think?


#216

I really wish I had the time to barge in and destroy all the mathematical and physics misconceptions here. Instead, I have to focus on culture.

Indeed. Many Western dances are not sexual in nature.

Again, you do discount Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner, Rossini, Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock etc.

Indeed.

I’m sure there must also be some pretty shitty Indian trash music around…

None that I have heard being blasted over the radios in India on a daily basis. Remember, our society is quite modest, unlike Western society. Even though songs nowadays are becoming Westernized, they are still relatively “clean” compared to some of the other Western counterparts.

You do discount, for example, the Italian food most of us adore:

Yea. American food is a joke. If you want to look for a Western model of healthy cuisine Surya, go European.

This is a very stereotypical example. Fashion choices vary greatly in Western culture and immensely richer than India as it is today. It looks like Indian culture is a rather poor example…

FYI, fashion choices in India also vary greatly. Have you ever been to India?

I find it interesting you consider some of the more scandalous fashion types in the West an example of cultural zeniths.

If anything, the clothing diversity in the West is not out of culture, in the sense of philosophical, intellectual, and artistic development, but [B]desire[/B] and [B]greed[/B]. That’s [B]capitalism[/B].

It appears that you are just as lacking as SD in cultural knowledge.

Gym is a great way to keep health. In the West, sporting tradition produces healthy human beings. India is rather poor when it comes to sports…

This is silly. Its like saying a man with polio is inferior in sports to a hale young boy because the young boy has a superior “culture” or religion.

Of course gym is a good way to keep yourself healthy, just like Yoga, Tai Chi, etc.

Do you forget our colonial history so easily when barraged by attacks on Western culture?

Again, I am sure the former is not the case in today’s India. But I give you a point in this. Greetings could be more meaningful…

Again, what do you know of India besides what Western media shoves down your throat?

Rather untrue. There are good family traditions in West. Perhaps not specifically in America…

It seems like you are actually contesting the “American” culture, rather than the rest of the West.

Agreed. There are good family traditions in every culture.

Is West mean America to you?

America. Culture. Lol. I think Surya should start looking >>>> at the rest of Europe and not <<<< to America to find culture.

Because, I do include Europe in the Western equation as well. And I do prefer European culture over America, for Europe is quite different to the notorious American restlessness.

Your comparisons lack sensibility and are rather obtuse…

Indeed.

But what about your illogical and obtuse comparisons?


#217

I have collected all these quotes together in order to address your fundamental assumption of “levels” A microscopic level, a macroscopic level, earthly levels, atomic levels and quantum levels. I quoted the Zeno paradox earlier to illustrate the point that distinctions are language constructions. There is no real reason to distinguish a few grains of rice from a heap of rice, it is just agreed on by convention.

So you are saying that there is no real reason to distinguish between the international scale, the national scale, the state scale, the regional scale, the county scale, and the city scale? You think that what applies to the village level should apply to the international level and transcend supposed language constructs and relativity within a phenomenological framework?

Does this even make the remotest of sense?

There is no such thing as many realities, reality is only ONE. This is declared in Vedanta: all is name and form. Is a gold necklace, a gold statue, and a gold ring different realities and substances? No, they are forms of the same fundamental substance: gold.

That’s nice, but isn’t it too bad that experimental observations don’t confirm this on a microscopic scale? Sorry man, thats just the way it works. Spouting metaphysics won’t change that.

Similarly is it right to say the microcosm and the macrocosm are different realities? No, they are exactly the same reality, but just different forms of the same fundamental substance. Now how can you possibly maintain that the physical world has mass, substance, space and time, when the quantum world has no mass, no substance, and no space and time - no physicality whatsorever?

Yes. It is.

Uhm, the quantum world does indeed have mass, substance, space and time considerations, and so on.

You don’t know your physics.

Imagine a building where the foundation does not exist? :wink:

Ditto.

The only conclusion one can derive from this is that the world of mass, substance, space and time are absolutely illusory - just an appearance. It is not as if we don’t have empirical evidence for it either, we have had it since the 70’s. You have failed to address Bell’s experiment and Legett’s experiment, which I referenced in this thread twice. The conclusion is that mass-energy, space and time do really NOT EXIST, and even the macroscopic scale exhibits quantum behaviour and be quantamized.

False. Once again, quantum irregularities and unpredictability don’t manifest on a macroscopic scale. This is basic quantum mechanics.

I do know of these experiments and know their results. The problem is that your lack of knowledge in physics is causing you to draw the wrong conclusions.

If you really do understand this equation: CONSCIOUSNESS + FIELD = REALITY AS IT APPEARS, then we should not even be debating. Then you will know that what we are discovering now in hard empirical science is that the empirical world of mass-energy, space and time is not real, but only an apperance corresponding to our waking state of consciousness. If you change the state of consciousness then you get a different appearance of reality.

Now it so happens we have discovered that consciousness is more fundamental than matter because consciousness is required itself for there to be any matter. This means in order to explore level of matter we must explore different states of consciousness from conscious to unconscious.

I will leave this argument to people who know philosophy and physics alike.

If you understand this you will understand what Bohr means by “end of physics” When he says end of physics he means that we can no longer physically measure reality because when we come to the quantum barrier nothing is measurable anymore. Do you contend this fact?

With respect to his statement, yes. With respect to the literal End of Physics, not really.

Right, so you are admitting what I am saying classical physics is USEFUL to us, but it is not real - what is real is what you deridingly just called “symbolic reality” There is nothing symbolic about the quantum - it is a fact of physics today. This is where particles are going when they disappear. This where we get the casimir force from. This is where we transmit q-bits into. The existence of this quantum field is an absolute fact in physics today.

No. I did not admit that. And I derided metaphysics and religion in general when I said “symbolic reality.”

Yes, I know these are facts. You just misinterpreted my statement.

Now why am I saying that Hindu science is more advanced? Well because we have known about this quantum field since yonks(akasha) and we know that the only way to enter it and go beyond physical and sensory reality is only through the mind. Thus we created the highest science of them all: yoga. I have already proven above that you can access deeper levels of the FIELD if you alter your consciousness states. You can get past the quantum barrier and into every other dimension of reality ONLY through the mind. This is why Western science is backwards - it has not yet understood the role the mind has to play in the world.
[/quote]

Debatable. Confer with a physicist who is also familiar with Yoga/metaphysics. I am not knowledgeable in this area and our discussion has to stall in this area.


#218

Clash of civilisations: Indian music vs Western music

I will make it clear I am not a cultural relativist. While most people try to be politically correct when comparing cultures and religions, I am not at all. My central thesis is that dharmic civilisation is the most superior in every area and it is must take over the global Western culture for humanity to progress.

The following comparison is by an expert in Indian and Western classical music:


Dr. Rabindranath Tagore who was well familiar with both the systems, explained the difference as follows: "The world by daylight stands for Western music which is a flowing concourse of vast harmony, composed of concord and discord and many disconnected fragments. And the night world stands for Indian music: one pure, deep and tender raga. Both, touches our heart, and yet both are contradictory in spirit. But this is natural. Nature, at the very root is divided into two, day and night, unity and variety, finite and infinite.

Indian men live in the realm of night; we are inspired by the sense of the One and Infinite. Indian music draws away the listener beyond the boundaries of daily joys and sorrows and takes us to the solitary space of renunciation which exists at the root of the universe, while Western music leads us to dance through a limitless rise and fall of human joy and grief.

Indian classical music basically stirs our spiritual sense and discipline - a longing for realization of the self salvation. Singing is a worshipping act and not an intellectual exhibition of mastery on the technique of a raga. In Western culture, singing is a formal and secular exercise, and does not involve piety or devotion as compared to Indian music

The teacher-student (Guru-Shishya) tradition in Indian music is responsible for the deep dedication and attachment of the student to the teacher. In the West, a music teacher is taken as a hired person who teaches lessons and there is no deep attachment between the teacher and student.

Like Western music, Indian music too is based on melody and rhythm, but it has no foundation of harmony which is so significant in Western music. Indian music is “modal” - based on the relationship between the permanent individual notes known as tonic, with the successive notes. This is the reason why Tanpura (drone) is played in the background of Indian music which reminds one of the tonic notes.

The Indian classical music system is horizontal; one note follows the other, while the Western music is vertical; many notes played at a time. Yehudi Menuhin, the noted musician, highlights the differentiates both systems by describing Indian music as: “for appreciating Indian music one has to adopt totally a different set of values… one must orientate oneself and at least for the concerned period, forget the passing of time and just sink into a kind of thematic, almost hypnotic trance. The rhythmic and melodic features of Indian music that are repetitive, acquires an extraordinary charm and fascination… despite the domination of this hypnotic mood’s domination, which is an Indian music characteristic, actively frees the mind.”

The place of “composition” in these two systems is notably different. In Western music, the music is first composed by the composer and arranges it in notation: then the musicians play this composition under the guidance of a music conductor. Here improvisation hardly takes place, and the performance value lies in the uniformity and the pre-determined conduct of tone and music speed (tempo). In Indian music, while the melody grammar and rhythm is fixed, the ingenuity and skill of the musician lies in his creativity and improvisation, especially in mood evocation and rasa of a particular raga.

In this context, an international musicologist has written: "In the West, solid blocks of music are constructed. After carving out like building stones, the seven degrees of diatonic scale, lined up and placed on top of each other with cleverly worked out harmony and counterpoint. In this way fantastic edifices in sound are erected.

In Indian classical music, no one can think of dividing sound into blocks; instead it is refined into a wire-thin thread. The sound is stretched out to refine it to an extreme point of delicacy… No standard materials, no building of three or five floors, but just like silk thread which unfold and rises and falls and evokes a world of sensations and feelings."

In music of India, melody and rhythm offer a variety of subtleties, which is not possible in Western music. Indian notes are divided into units called shruties (22 microtones), whereas Western music consist of 12 semitones. The microtones are more subtle than semitones. These microtones adorned with gracetones (gamakas) create a magical effect.

Western music has the capacity of producing many feelings and moods. While Indian music, has the capacity to produce a principal emotion or a mood in a raga. An Indian musician improvises with his own creative genius within a raga’s framework, but in Western classical music, except in jazz, such an improvisation is inconceivable.


The comparison highlights the crucial difference in the cultural philosophy and values between Indian and Western culture. Indian culture emphasises one to go inwards, to aspire to the divine and penetrate into deeper and deeper reality, to maintain harmony and order in relation to the entire cosmos because everything is interconnected and everything is connected to consciousness. Hence Indian music also has a psychological theory of aeshetics underpinning it(known as theory of rasa) In contrast, Western culture emphasises going outwards, to aspire for material perfection and to treat everything as separate and individual. This can be seen in every cultural form, including of course as we can see from the above article music.

Indian music is not just music, but it is a holy and divine act and treated as sacred. Hence why music is practiced with the same intensity as a yogi practices for enlightenment. In fact it is said one can attain enlightenment from the path of music itself. It is studied under the tutelage of a guru and requires absolute dedication and respect. It is clear that the founders of Indian music penetrated very deep into the vibrations of music as each notes of consists of 22 microtones, making it a more more subtle and refined than Western music/

Again you will find this feature repeat throughout all Indian cultural forms. All of them tend towards divinity and spiritual realization. Is that surprising when even a simple act such as greeting one another has a divine message?

This is why there is simply no comparison between Indian culture and Western culture. One is divine, spiritual(Deva) and the other is material(Asura) As the divine and spiritual is a much deeper reality than the material and the very foundation of existence towards which humanity is evolving, it is blatantly clear then that Indian culture is superior and more advanced. Therefore one day Western culture too will become exactly like Indian culture. It is inevitable and it already happening to an extent: 15-20 million people say Namaste to one another, do salutations to the Sun and chant OM :wink:


#219

cough cough cough rheumatic cough

s =1/2gt^2

s + ds = (g(t + dt)^2)/2
= g/2 (t^2 + 2tdt + [dt]^2)
= gt^2/2 + gtdt + g/2(dt)^2
= gtdt + g/2(dt)^2
ds = gtdt (approx)

ds/dt = gt

This is the instantaneous velocity of the ball when the launch angle from the origin is 0 degrees.

Argue that!


#220

Does this even make the remotest of sense?

Yes, because you are talking about levels as defined by language. Such levels do not exist, they are just practical and arbitary conventions we agree on.

What makes a city different from a town different from a village?

That’s nice, but isn’t it too bad that experimental observations don’t confirm this on a microscopic scale? Sorry man, thats just the way it works. Spouting metaphysics won’t change that.

An intelligent man once said physics is bordered on both sides by metaphysics :smiley: Try and work out what that means :wink:

While there is experimental evidence for the argument that all of reality is one fundamental substance, let us first look at some logic. Because as a Hindu you should be less concerned with experiments, and more on logic(We are rationalists, not empiricsts) Follow the logical steps

  1. All things are produced out of other things
  2. All other things are produced out of yet more things
  3. Therefore, all things must have come out of one original thing, else we would have an infinite regression.

Do you agree? Next step:

  1. If all things came out of one original thing then this means all things are made out of one original substance. Thus they are just transformations of the same substance.
  2. This original substance must have contained all things within it in a state of potentiality.
  3. All things must of then issued out of the original thing from simple things to complex things increasing in density, size, dimension and mass
  4. Therefore the original thing must have had no density, size or mass. It must be potential only.

If you can follow this chain of reasoning you will arrive at what we Hindus call multaprakriti. It a central tenet of Hinduism, so I would have to question how Hindu you are if you denied it :wink: Mulaprakriti is the original and primordial substance from which the entire universe has arisen. It is also called Adishakti.

Now for your empirical validation. To be honest I am quite surprised you would even question that all matter is made out of the same one substance. The third law of thermodynamics says that energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be transformed from one form to the other. In relativity it is said that all matter is simply just condensed energy. Thus from this one would not one conclude that energy is the primal substance and everything is just a transformation of this?

I will show you next how there is something even more finer than energy:

Uhm, the quantum world does indeed have mass, substance, space and time considerations, and so on.

You don’t know your physics.

Dear, you should know as a physicist familiar with quantum mechanics that prior to matter becoming a particle it is a wavefunction. It exists in a superpositioned state. You should know about the uncertainty principle how we can never actually measure the position and momentum of a particle and how we must use probability to determine where it is going to be found. In other words we cannot measure the quantum. The act of measurement collapses the wavefunction and the particle is created So prior to the particle appearing, the particle has no position and no mass.

Again follow the logical argument. Prior to anything existing it is potential. Prior to the particle existing it is potential only(a wavefunction). If it not yet existent then how can it have position and mass?

Do you follow? I am having to walk you through this because although the arguments are water tight to me, I think you are having problems following it.

Therefore, if it has no position and mass then it means something has to happen that collapses the wavefuction and position and mass to happen. Yet, how can anything happen when everything is in a state of quantum entanglement? If everything is entangled there cannot be a self-collapse. There has to be external agency.

Do we have empirical validation for this? Yes, hidden variable theory has been disproven and it was first done by John Bell. It is ironic that I mentioned this twice or thrice in this thread already and you and Q have not acknowledged it. Do you understand what Bell’s experiment has proven? It has proven that there is no space, time and mass and most probably no physical reality. Then I cited Legget’s experiment in the article, “Quantum physics says goodbye to reality” which has now proven reality does not exist - if it is not being observed.

Do you know the term we use for quantum interactions? “Virtual quanta” It is virtual because it not existent. In quantum field theory it is stated that virtual quanta appear in and out of reality(known as quantum flux) and it is possible to capture them in a “fuzzy state” Has this been empirically validated? Yes, by the casimir effect - who proved that in a pure vacuum, only consisting of pure space - there was still energy. This means there is a reality beyond physical space - which is now called the quantum field/zero point energy field.

Ditto.

Well now you have to ask the obvious question if space, time, mass and energy do not exist and actually all of reality is made out of virtual stuff - then how heck does virtual stuff become physical stuff. And if reality if the fundamental level of reality has no mass, space, time, energy then how can the macroscopic reality have mass, space, time, energy? Again, can you have a building with no foundation?

False. Once again, quantum irregularities and unpredictability don’t manifest on a macroscopic scale. This is basic quantum mechanics.

I do know of these experiments and know their results. The problem is that your lack of knowledge in physics is causing you to draw the wrong conclusions.

Yes, they do not manifest on the macroscope scale because you cannot observe them - they are still going on. Even when you swing a pendulum, it appears to have a continious motion, but we know it is not really continious down there on the atomic level with electrons jumping about from one level to another. You know at the atomic level matter is 99% empty space, but does the world look like empty 99.9% empty space to you?

We know that matter and energy are always being transformed to one another and any object with a momentum is actually gaining mass - but does a car look like it is gaining mass? No, because we cannot perceive it. Similarly, the macroscopic world is also experiencing quantum effects, but you simply cannot see it.

There really is no dispute between us if you look at this discussion carefully. You are talking about reality as it appears; I am talking about reality as it is.

With respect to his statement, yes. With respect to the literal End of Physics, not really.

It is the literal end of physics because when you come to the fundamental level of the wavefunction or what is called the quantum field you no longer have a physical reality - thus you cannot measure it. How do you measure something which is virtual, is everywhere at once and nowhere - you cannot. Thus prior to matter in the particle stage, we cannot measure it. Thus physics cannot go beyond it. It is a barrier.

No. I did not admit that. And I derided metaphysics and religion in general when I said “symbolic reality.”

What you do not realise is that physics has become metaphysics today. We are talking about a level of reality where there is no space, time, mass, dimension, position - that we call virtual. We are saying very categorically now that physical reality is an illusion - it does not exist.

Physics has ended. Metaphysics has begun. Hence why you got people like Max Planck talking about inteligent fields underlying matter. Hence, why you got a huge movement of scientists and physicists now exploring physics through mind sciences.

[/quote]

Debatable. Confer with a physicist who is also familiar with Yoga/metaphysics. I am not knowledgeable in this area and our discussion has to stall in this area.[/QUOTE]

It is blatantly clear you are not familiar with Yoga and Hindu metaphysics. I think you should read on it. It is our heritage and it is key to understanding Vedic dhama. I really think you are Hindu in name only to very honest. A lot of your views and attitudes are very Western.