that’s actually simple: Because you declare us to be not civilised. You declare us to be “going around” and “invading, exploiting, looting and raping”. You declare some rate of divorce or depression as an indicator for the grade of civilisation.
In many ways you are civilized and in many ways, you are not civilized. In our opinion, your civilization’s flaws outweigh your perfections. Why? Because of arrogance, pride, and willful ignorance.
That’s how [you think] it works. I personally did not ever even speak about being civilised, what should that be anyways, asking you, I’m sure it’s behaving in a way you think is appropriate.
No.
However, even if you disagreed with the circumstances being the reason for a nation to be violent, non-violent, or, if you will, “civilised”, you still have not named a single alternative. So please: What could it be?
What do you mean by alternatives? If you mean “what can we do to change,” simply:
- Pick up a history book.
- Understand that you are, as an aggregate, not superior to anyone or anything.
- Learn to respect other cultures and viewpoints. Just because the West thinks its a virtue to let people degrade themselves by watching porn, that does not mean other cultures hold the same view point. As long as you can defend your position, others will find reason enough to not necessarily agree with you, but empathize.
And I picked Germanic people as one example. Germanic people were less advanced than Romans and Greeks and all sorts of other cultures. And probably more advanced than a few others.
Again you simply refuse to deal with the point, skippy.
And look where you guys arrived at. Those are the kinds of developments we need to cherish.
Instead of bashing another nation for a perceived [B]inherent[/B] flaw, like caste (though its more of a societal than a religious system) or slavery, you should understand it as either a developmental stage or low point of the civilization in question.
But no, most Westerners will not and cannot do this. They think the reason other countries are the way they are is because they are inherently inferior to the West. Not only is this pooping on 10,000 years of human development since the last Ice Age but also ignoring factors such as colonialism, imperialism, missionary activity, and so on.
So in other words you pick two people, IVC and Sumeria, compare them, belittle one of them (Sumeria) and glorificy the other (IVC), but to discuss the hows and whys is still impossible. You refuse to admit it’s the circumstances, reason: It would reduce the glory of ancient India. If it were just the circumstances, it wouldn’t be a surprise or big deal. If it was just an easy life in a large land with no competitor that gave India the chance to advance faster, how lame would that be, hm?! Even lamer than your style of “debate”.
I agree with your point but not the way you are presenting it.
Au contraire, IVC is actually considered from more or less the same roots as Egypt and Sumer. In Eurocentric history, IVC used to be depicted as a “satellite” region of Sumeria but it is now acknowledged as a unique civilization with historical and genetic ties to Sumer and Egypt.
Furthermore, there is nothing short of miraculous about this finding. It proves many things about the migration of populations from Africa, theories on the development of civilizations, and so on. It is miraculous that these civilizations developed the way they did, just as it is miraculous that Europe had a sudden outburst of creativity and cultural development during the Renaissance.
I fail to see how presenting historical circumstances diminishes the awesomeness of an event, person/group, place or thing.
The problem arises when people (like most Westerners today) ignore historical circumstances and cite the reason for Western superiority as a superior culture, race, religion, and ideology.
So there are races. Sure they all have the same potential. That’s why I wonder why you still have to refuse to accept that India and Indian people were only more advanced culturally due to circumstances. Why do you desire so much that there were your obscure “other reasons”? If all races are the same, why not admit yours was simply lucky in the dawn of civilisation?
Because you’re a damn racist…?
But this is a question about which civilization’s values are superior. Sure the West and India each [B]rose[/B] to power because of historical circumstances, the geography, and, most importantly, the actions of the people in the civilization themselves. But what did the West [B]do[/B] with its power? Cause death, destruction, violence, ignorance, and massive jingoism.
This wouldn’t even be a subject to argue about if the West had long given up its supremacy. But it hasn’t. This naturally leads one to find out what the hell is wrong with Western civilization. Answer: ideology. Supremacist and bigoted ideology with roots in the Judeo-Christian tradition.
So you say that the culture of “the West” (actually like 5,000 different cultures)
This is quite incorrect. The cultures of the Nordic people, Germanic people, Slavic people, Scandinavians, etc are no more. Why? Christianity. Conversion by the sword. Proselytization. Taking advantage of polytheistic pluralism to subvert the culture in question. What cultures the ancient Europeans had are no more. All that’s left is Christianity (or rather the influence of its exclusivism) and a big pile of supremacy.
punished. Who is there to be brought to justice by whom? If it’s not me, the living part of my culture, then who? You keep repeating to whine about the past: What for? You keep blaming western culture for the past: Why? We who live today, as you say now and claim to have said before, aren’t responsible. So what do you want? What’s your point? Are you against wrong doings in the present? Then why (the hell) do you emphasize the past 24/7? Are you against military actions in the present? Dude, I’m pretty much with you here. Are you against exploitation of poor countries? Exactly my opinion. How come we don’t discuss such topics and always talk about a past that’s done and gone, about wrong doings that happened in the past, with noone responsible alive anymore? Let’s talk about the present! What topics are there? You mentioned some: In some book, the author didn’t think the Bhagavad Gita was a great book. Holy lord, how dare he! What book was it, anyways? And you think that Indian literature is not recognised?? I don’t see how and why, please show me, all I always hear and read is that it’s great.
And what are you today but the exact same as your ancestors, with all their supremacy, racism, and bigotry?
Westerners have not repented. Most of them continue to believe their culture and civilization is superior. You have not learned from your past.
We want Westerners to learn from their past and CHANGE themselves. But they will not listen. You will not listen. You continue to patronize other cultures and civilizations. You all continue to invade other countries for your own selfish interests, all in the name of “democracy” and “freedom.”
That is why we are arguing with you.
And you mentioned the Dalits being converted to Christianity? Well, it’s always easy to convert people that are discriminated by their own people/religion. My suggestion: Stop that discrimination and prejudice and make “Dalits” feel at home and welcome and part of the community. Really abolish the caste system.
We will tell you for the final time that the caste system is more societal than religious. It was reinstated and reinforced by the British. Moving on:
So you condone that conversion? You condone the kind of conversion that turns people into ignorant haters of their own nation and people. You condone conversion into a religion that is intolerant of all other religions?
We are doing our best to stop that discrimination. All sorts of Hindu organizations have cropped up over the decades to help the Dalits. My grandparents run a school for the underprivileged, including Dalits. My dad and his uncles donate considerable amounts of money to charities in India. India had abolished the caste system in 1947 and created a reservation system (akin to affirmative action) for the underprivileged.
And if we Hindus were still clinging onto the caste system (which does happen in the rural areas that account for 70% of India’s population, but those areas are not representative of India, just as anti-black, segregated, anti-immigrant, and anti-evolution areas of the U.S are hardly representative of America), then explain why an untouchable is one of the richest people in Varanasi.
But still this is not enough for the Dalits. They continue to denounce Hinduism, Hindus, and India despite the changing character of the Indians. They continue to denounce Hinduism despite clear evidence that the caste system was indirectly reinforced by Muslim and European invasions, when it was already losing influence in society.
The majority of Dalits want nothing more than the obliteration of Hindus and Hinduism. They will not forgive and forget despite the fact that the majority of Indians have repented and are changing.
And are you kidding me? “Abolish caste system for good?” Maybe we will work on it when you can abolish racism in the West.
Oh, that’s right, you can’t.
Filthy hypocrites.
What else have you got? Child labor? Should be banned. Exploitation of farmers and such in poor countries? Should be banned. There are efforts to do so, for example I think it’s even illegal (in Germany) to import goods that were manufactured with child labor involved. And there is this “Fair trade”-movement to avoid exploitation. Personally I always try to avoid to buy food that comes from other countries, but buy stuff that’s grown locally.
Child labor? Using child labor is banned in India, filthy racist Mr. Hitler. Child labor is indeed used in traditional farm areas, and there is nothing wrong with that. That’s how farmers in every civilization/culture/nation survive; by having the entire family work alongside them.
Exploitation of farmers? I don’t know what the f*** you’re talking about Mr. Hitler. Agriculture is one of the biggest economic sectors in India. If we were discriminating against farmers, we would lose much of our production base.
If there is any region of the world that has persecuted farmers, its the Western world. Farmers, especially in American politics, have been the most underrepresented and mistreated people in history. In fact, the farmers were so fed up with their treatment in America (high internal tariffs, laissez-faire economics that allowed business to run their corrupt bargains, etc) that they formed organizations such as the Grangers and eventually, the Populist Party. This political party was one of the most successful third party in American history, but it IS unfortunate that they were put down by the military and became racist.
However, I think that these problems are problems that you cannot just blame a nation or a culture for, that is a problem that lies within the companies that are interested in making money. I don’t see that as a cultural phenomenon, you can find people who betray or abuse or exploit others for personal profit in any culture, including India.
Nice to finally hear this.
But lets not forget your constant mantra of “caste, caste, caste, caste, caste” without you actually knowing its history and development (once again, thanks to the British and the Muslims, castes became highly stratified and people within castes became more intolerant of one another).
But the question remains why the majority sided with the Nazis and in fact became Nazis, which lead to the Nazis being in power which lead to the Nazis killing the Jews (and starting WWII, with ~ 60 million victims). How did that happen? You call me narrow minded for stating it were the circumstances: What’s your alternative explanation? You keep saying it weren’t circumstances, why don’t you enlighten me about what it was then?
It wasn’t out of racism against Jews but out of the despair of the German people. Their economy was faltering due to the rampant inflation their government had to create to pay off war reparations to the Allies. When the Great Depression in America started, Germany was in the toilet.
In times like these, you have people called “demagogues,” Surya Deva. People that prey upon the emotions, fears, and prejudices of the people to gain political/social power.
You evade evade evade. You want to deny deny deny that circumstances lead to wrong doings. If it’s not the circumstances, then what the hell is it? What does make a man a thief or a killer? Such a simple question. What led the Germans to become Nazis? Was Germany a great nation, rich, happy, etc.? Or was it a miserable poor country, humiliated, weakened? Do you think a great and rich Germany would’ve done the same, would’ve followed the same paroles, committed the same crimes? Here, just by the way, you see what punishment can lead to: Just the next crime, and one far more grave and evil.
Germany should have been punished, but not to the degree the Allies wanted it to be.
What statement? I ask a question and state that “it kinda seems”. Is it not true that India was always easy to conquer for anybody? No problem, I don’t know Indian history any much. So it was hard?
Depends on the time periods you are talking about. Every time India was invaded, India was already suffering from a lack of unity and internal strife. However, in those times throughout history where we united, we were unconquerable.
Sounds like an easy thing to do, just go there and take what you need, kill 80 million Indians here, tens of millions there.
You do forget that our civilization’s population was extremely high for its time, right? Populations never get that high unless you have civilizations that FLOURISH immensely throughout history.
And you do realize that our population was heavily concentrated in the Gangetic Plains and better-climate South India/West India?
Even then, you do realize this estimate is an aggregate of the deaths by the decades or centuries?
With idiotic comments like these, it is no small wonder that SD accused you for enjoying the deaths of tens of millions of people.
So fighting for survival is ok, right? It’s ok to kill other people if the alternative would be to die? Please respond. :lol:
Yeah, and the Muslims and the Europeans didn’t kill because they were fighting for survival, Mrs. Arian Hitler. They killed for converts, gold (new trade routes, catch up with the Spaniards), and glory. In short, it was greed. Europe was nowhere close to being overpopulated or being depleted of resources by the time it started conquering.
I wouldn’t know that my ancestors ever did anything to India. Did I miss something?
Oh trust me, Germans played a HUGE role in spreading anti-Hindu propaganda and rewriting our history to match British colonial interests and need for racial supremacy.
I actually think that morality is nonsense overall, and to grant a people freedom is the virtue of the West. 
I disagree with this but understand the angle you are coming from. See what I did there?
We Indians can show tolerance. You guys can’t. That’s why most of you are racist and supremacist.
If one has no control over their senses, I agree they need to improve. But why would somebody who watches porn not have control over their senses? Why would one who watches porn not have the ability for great compassion, charity, love, friendship and wisdom?
Yeah, great point! Why would someone who rapes another not have control over their senses? sarcasm
But I agree with the latter rhetorical question. Just because someone watches porn, that does not make them inherently evil.
You gave no single argument for anything being wrong about porn. Is it wrong to love eating tasty food to?
Dude, if you can’t see that porn is bad, then you have no right to be insulted when we call you asuric.
And I’m sure parents would also opine that porn is bad…unless you think exposing an innocent child at a young age to porn is good.
I reported this post, just btw, cuz you’re taking it too far with your insults. You need some punishment, maybe get banned for a week, so you learn not to do this again. I, though, think it only reflects your helplessness. If you have no other way to respond to arguments, you try to insult your opponent away.
How hypocritical.
See, you give no single reason. You just repeat traditional values. Why not? Besides being my parents, my parents are my friends, I don’t call them “Madam” and “Sir”.
I disagree with both SD and you on this one. Cultures and cultures and different cultures have different ways of expressing their love and appreciation for parents.
In the West, its a normal thing to kiss parents on the lips. Its just a form of appreciation and love.
No need to bash either the Indian way or the Western way of appreciation.
In India it doesn’t. Never ever. Really. Because dharmic traditions forbid it.
Its not explicitly forbidden, Mrs. Arian Hilter. Its just [B]DIFFERENT[/B] in our culture. Both of you can stop arguing about the meaning of different forms of parental appreciation.
I thought this is about the woman being the housekeeper. Now it’s about the woman being the mother. What if there is no child?
Then they can go out and work while taking care of the rest of the family, Mrs. Arian Hitler.
And why can’t the father do that?
Why doesn’t the father do that in the Western world? Oh right, because our societies [B]AREN’T MATRIARCHAL[/B], Mrs. Arian Hitler.
Yeah dude, of course it is. The question is, why has it to be the job of a woman. It can as well be the father. The father can stay at home and take care of the household and the children and the mother goes to work.
What the **** is this? Majority of fathers in patriarchal societies don’t do this. What the **** does this have to do with Western vs Dharmic culture?
Or the mother sacrifices her own leisrue to work and the father his to look after the children. Or, and that’s how my wife and I handle it, they split it. I look as much after our son as his mother, and I often even do more at home, because I work at home. There’s surely something wrong according to your primitive-uhm-I-mean-dharmic worldview: Explain what!
And what the hell is wrong with either way, white supremacist Mr. Arian Hitler? Besides, it isn’t even a set Dharmic rule or credo. If a family wants to divide up the work, then they divide up the work. Its just that the other way is most commonly done not only in Indian society but in most societies.
Oh, I do understand it quite well. To take care of a household is not exactly a work that is considered to be manly, you know, wash clothes, prepare food, clean the toilet. You call it dharma: Well.
No Mr. Hitler, taking care of a household is something even most fathers don’t do. Doesn’t matter if they are Western, Dharmic, Indian, African, and so on.
To be honest, no one even cares if you take care of the household on a level comparable to that of your wife.
See: when I say that India was conquered a lot and it seems to have been quite esay, that’s actually an observation. No glee involved, no pride. You stating that “most” childredn grow up without being sure who their father is and adding a bunch of smileys to it: That’s glee. You like that thought. You like to think that western culture is rotten and all. What’s so likeable about it, Surya Asura?
It is not simply an observation but a retarded observation borne by ignorance.
Surya Deva’s comment was made not out of glee and pride but out of scorn. This is in line with his feelings of Indian superiority.
However, it’s indeed the case that in the West parents can take a break of being parents every now and then. It’s common. You let the kids grandparents watch over it or you leave it at a friends house, who has children as well, and they sometimes leave your kids with you. Or you leave the kids with the fathers and the mothers go out or the other way. Why wouldn’t you? So you have some free time for yourself to have some non-kid-fun, that provides you with some energy.
Its the same everywhere you nasty white bigot. It isn’t confined to the West or the East or the South or the North.
About the divorce rate: I don’t see the problem again, sorry. If people don’t want to be together anymore, why would they not part? According to your tradition-driven India, the reason why there (are there?) less divorces should be that tradition forbids it, forbids women to got out and meet other men (and therefore men don’t meet other women). So you have families that live a formal life with artificial relationships that are determined by traditions, instead of feelings. Women are not allowed to leave the house and have fun, are not allowed contact with other men, not allowed to divorce if they simply don’t love their husbands anymore. Well, if they ever did in the first place, aren’t mariagges arranged a lot in India? And if it wasn’t banned, widows would even die with their husbands. Why all that would be “civilised” and “advanced culture”: I don’t get it. To me it sounds like oppression.
Don’t see the problem? You don’t see that the high divorce rate is caused by factors such as:
- Choosing a partner out of lust/sexual desire.
- Lessening tolerance for attempting to make relationships work.
If you don’t see the problem, then you indeed have a problem.
What the **** is up with your stereotypes? Always depicting the West and civilized, superior, and liberal and the rest of the world as primitive, uncivilized, and under-developed.
This is precisely the reason why the world hates the West and precisely the reason why the Western world is uncivilized. [B]Ignorance and arrogance.[/B]
FYI, such a thing is not forbidden in our culture.
You think you can change western culture to live that way? Dude.
If your kind of ignorance is representative of the way all Westerners think, i doubt you guys would be alive to witness such a revolution.
It is a fact, yes. But I do not see what the problem is. Well, I do see a problem that when a couple breaks up and they have a child, that the father or the mother isn’t around all the time anymore and they get to see each other less. On the other hand, if mom and dad don’t love each other anymore and don’t want to be together anymore, they’d be unhappy if they’d be forced to be, which would again affect the child. And if they work it out, both parents can still frequently see the child after a divorce and spend “quality time” together.
Agreed.
Dharma, that’s an Indian tradition or something, isn’t it? That you then call the eternal law of the universe or so.
Or perhaps you are too ignorant to know what Dharma is?
That’s right, run to Google.
And while you were disgruntled by a 60 year old woman having a good time, that 60 year old woman was having a good time. If you asked me, you already have failed in life.
Depends on the type of “good time.” If she was merely out to have one or two drinks and relax, then yes.
If she was out getting drunk, doing more drugs, blah blah, then…its whatever you think it is.
If you ask me, you have already failed you life, your race, and your nation by being such an ignorant and bigoted member of your society.
I think your so-called virtue is a set of primitive traditions that are mostly installed to oppress women, hold them down, make them the slaves of men, breed their children, wash their clothes, clean their toilets, and so forth. I despise it.
And I despise the fact that you THINK our traditions are like that. No wonder Muslims hate you guys so much.
Westerners like you are responsible for genocides, wars, and fundamentalist backlash. But you’re probably proud of it.
Never before have I felt such kinship with the Muslims.
Ok, if Deva means “no porn” and “no divorces” and “don’t befriend your parents” and “many churches” then India is Deva + I don’t care to be Deva.
Not? Then what are you saying?
What does that mean? Not getting away?
Ok.
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India: The eternal victim.
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And China is a threat to the West…? Hey, maybe the west and India can team up when war breaks out? Wouldn’t that be awesome? You and me, side by side fighting China? High five!
And to the Western status quo.
Nah, if China and the West get into a war, India will remain neutral.
And its actually quite a fitting match. The two most Eurocentric civilizations in history battling one another! I wonder what the war will be like!
China - “We invent DUH printing pressuh, duh paper, like-duh gunpowder, and the sundaiiiiill…”
West - “We are civilized and you are not.”
India - “Tank yuuu, cumm ugh-an. Wud you laik sum currie?”
But Pakistan is India. It’s the same people, just that they split off and called themselves “Pakistan”. I’m not familiar with all the causes, but what I see:
Crude, but accurate.
And then
Two (or three?) nations battling about a piece of land. Of course Indians will say the others are the evil force. And the others will say, India is. As usual.
Yeah, the land belongs to us. It was inhabited by Hindus called the “Kashmiri Pundits” for millennia. Several Buddhist and Hindu monasteries were built there you know. There was one monastery with 4 doors. Each door represented the 4 regions of India, South, North, East, and West. A door was opened whenever a philosopher of note from a particular region of India debated his way up to the top of the echelon.
Too bad all of these temples were destroyed by marauding Muslims. Even then, a lineage of Hindu kings ruled there.
During independence times, the Muslims, who wanted Kashmir, rushed there by the hundreds of thousands in order to claim a region with a Muslim majority. We Indians didn’t care. During Partition however, it came as no surprise when the Hindu king who ruled the place chose to join India.
= angry Muslims. Now remember the population of Hindu Kashmiri Pundits I was talking about? Yeah, I think they made up about 40% of the population by this time. What happened to them? Murdered. Raped. Driven out.
All by the Muslims.
One of the worst genocides in history.
But who knows or cares about this? Surely not the biased Western media!
And now the Hindu population there is next to non-existent.
The facts remain the facts, India/Pakistan are warring nations, once brothers, now fighting each others. What exactly is that Deva-concept again…?
Actually, it illustrates what you call the “Deva concept” quite well. Asuric Muslims, with their demonic religion, can’t get along with Hindu devas. So, like any Asura, they fight, kill, start wars, and rinse, lather, and repeat. 
Ok, so you aint’t trying to make a difference with your posts - it was just a question, my friend. And what about that discussion? I see no discussion. You have your point of view and that’s it. You repeat it over and over again. There is - I said it before - no coming to terms with you. On the contrary are you doing everything to insult and belittle your opponents. They are like animals to you, if they don’t agree with your conservative traditional world-view. How is that a discussion? You’re here to inform people and spread you viewpoint. That’s also called “propaganda” - remember when I was the first to expose who and what you are? Was back in the days when you still was civilised and started your posts with “Namaste”. How come you gave that up, btw? I still greet you in each and every post. 
No, we are trying to eradicate the kind of racism/ignorance/bigotry you seem to be an embodiment of, in addition to any misconceptions about Hinduism, India, and Hindus. This is not propaganda but a campaign for better representation.
Respect should be earned, not given. So far, you have done nothing to earn that respect.
Just one thing:
