What is Enlightenment?

Spirituality Religion
#161

How come you guys are benevolent supernatural beings?

The word Deva means divine, luminous or shining one. If we say sombody is like a Deva we generally mean they are divine, godly, good. Our dharmic culture is divine, godly and saintly, not necessarily our people. We also use the word “Arya” which means noble, cultured and good - but nobody is Arya by their race or birth - they are Arya by their qualities.

Why did we develop a deva-culture and you an asura culture? It has nothing to do with race, but with the fact that our civilisations had different foundations and different values. Compare for example our origins in the indus valley civilisation with your origins in Sumer. Sumer shows very clear dichotomies of power of slaves and masters; have’s and have nots; oppressed and oppressor. This is reflected in its cities where giant monuments and Ziggagauts are built for the priest kings, and everybody else live like slaves in homes scattered around the kingdom in highly narrow and conjested conditions. This is also reflected in the later literature that develops from this tradition like the OT.

In contrast in the Indus valley civilisation we see a middle class society where every home is connected to an underground sewage system via pipes, every home has a drinking well, bathroom with toilet, courtyard. The cities are highly planned with each home being located on a grid pattern surrounded by lanes and streets at perfect right angles. It is also clear that while everybody has the basic amenities, there is a class stratification with some areas having bigger houses. Not a single monument has been found or any kind of evidence of centralized rule.

Sumeria is a system of centralized power and of clear and cut dichotomies in society - master and slave. Later this foundational ethos would lead to feudalism and capitalism.
IVC is a system of decentralized power and complex stratification of society according to functional needs, but where everybody has the same basic amentities and equal participation in society.

It is easy to see whose Deva and whose Asura here.

Now, why did we develop an IVC like foundational ethos and you a Sumer like foundational ethos? I find it very telling that the only possibility you can conceive of to explain this is race. Like I said, you suffer from a narrow mind. There are various possibilites why the IVC developed as it did - because of good climate and abundant resources in India allowed for Indians to make massive progress; because the values laid down by early Indians which became popular and hegemonic and defined its culture. Maybe because India was one of the first countries to be colonized by humans leaving Africa.

There is no such thing as race. We all belong to the same species, have the same brain capacity and the same biology. Culture are formed from practices by humans and not determined by genes. It is simply not true an Indian is genetically superior to any other race - there is no such thing as a genetically superior race - race is nothing more than a practical classification to show which part of the world a particular human group is concentrated and originally appeared in.

I am not racist and it will be clear to pretty much everybody on this forum from what I am saying. By constantly accusing me to be racist despite what I am saying, you are showing yourself to be an ignoramus. A lot of objective readers are going to see you in this way.

#162

And the debate continues. Sorry Q, I couldnt take it up where you left. Was busy with my stuff. Was it double-slit experiment and racism we were discussing? Yeah, I showed you evidence and you kept saying that and that arent relevant. If you dont acknowledge my sources, then show me yours. Are you a theoretical physicist cracking on some outstanding stuff? If not, then give me your account of double-slit experiment. Then I’ll prove it to you that quantum superposition is a subatomic teleportation :wink:

Yes, I googled to dig up articles. Wats wrong with it? Authors upload their data on the net, and thats how you find sources. We are living in the age of information, if you notice :rolleyes: Though, you dont hesitate to bring up cheesy and biased wikipedia writing when it comes to a very unscientific topic like racism?

Anyhow, apparently, I realized that you and I are using different terminologies. In that respect, I find myself naturally supporting Surya on many things cos he’s thinking at the cutting edge. Well, on the other hand, you don’t. Surya said something spot-on: you shoot your school knowledge onto the table, a knowledge that is getting increasingly obsolete. And then icing your cake with the racism crap? I know it isnt white, but it isnt black either…

#163

… Enlightenment?
I think after reading this forum am en-lighted to write in this!

#164

Yes, I saw your articles. Unfortunately, you are sharing them with somebody who lacks honour. Have you noticed how much information I have given him on ancient Vedic science, direct citations from primary texts with loads of supplementary materials explicitly talking about force vectors, gravity, cycles of expansion and contraction of the universe(even measuring one cycle to be 311 trillion years) observer effects, quantum matter, equivalence of energy and matter, conservation of energy, states of matter as a function of kinetic energy of atoms, atomic bonds(breaking and forming) genes and genetic disorders, nanomedicines, the wave theory of sound. He has ignored and denied everything and called it trivial, just as he ignored, denied and called your links trivial.

Also notice how he has deliberately completely ignored the article I posted from physicweb referencing an article from Nature journal(one of the most prestigious physics journals in the world) which shows how Quantum physics has now shown that reality does not exist i.e., if there is no observer there is no reality.

I have come across his narrow minded type in the physics community before. They pretend like quantum physics is consistent with classical physics and classical physics is still true, and everybody who says otherwise is a new-ager, wack job, lier, fraud. The irony is this list would include Neil Bohr, Max Planck the pioneers of quantum physics, and tons of quantum physicists today. You are dealing here not with reasonable people, but close minded people who treat classical physics like their faith.
There are some right fanatics in this grouping as well, they adovocate burning books of and attacking quantum physicists who go against their faith.

You are completely right the subatomic particles are indeed teleporting. Max Planck was the first to discover this discontinuity when he was studying black body radiation. He discovered that the motion of all matter was not continious but discontinious, that there were weird jumps where subatomic particles would make a quantum jump from one level to another i.e, they would disappear out of physical reality enter the quantum and then reappear again somewhere else. Heisenberg thus formulated his uncertainity principle noting that both the position and the momentum of an electron cannot be determined i.e., its trajectory cannot be tracked - because it appears and disappears at random. Thus we can only give a probability where it might appear.

I doubt Q has any credentials in science. At most highschool level perhaps. I am open to being surprised.

#165

Well, he isnt aware of the fact that the world of classical western science and its mathematics could not describe qualities like conscious experience, empathy, resonance, uncertainty, and so on, and usually what could not be described is ignored. This science deals with two things: known and unknown. Yet what is unknown at the minute, will be known in future accroding to their assumption. Thus they do ignore the realm of “unknowable,” the quantum realm.

The idea has not entered into the mind that quantum physics is a “physics of possibilities”, as Amit Goswami said. Thus 'tis a rather uncanny and frightful development, “the wooden structure in Einstein’s perfect marble temple.”

We are living in a society full of frightful “givens.” Unfortunately, a lot of people’s minds are colonised with these “givens” insofar as the required amount of oxygen to free the thought isnt pumped into their brains any longer. It occurs to me that Q’s brain aint getting enough oxygen due to his attachments to scientistic “givens.”

#166

Hi High Wolf,

It occurs to me that Q’s brain aint getting enough oxygen due to his attachments to scientistic "givens."
awww. You’re trying to be hurtful, but you’re too far from being enough of a ratfink to even make my eyebrow rise. :wink:

You see, I think you probably mean well. At least you’re not trying to mislead intentionally or anything. But you have two problems:

  1. You want to believe. Isn’t that so? I think I asked you already. You want that teleportation is true and proven and performed by scientist, right? Cuz you want to be able to teleport yourself. That is insofar a problem, that your desire (“greed”) clouds your judgement.

  2. You lack of correct knowledge. You have no mentionable knowledge of physics. You claim to have read some stuff, however, I can see that you do not have much knowledge of the matter. Check yourself for yourself, if you really know anyhow much.

These two problem coming together cause you to misunderstand. You ask what’s wrong with the articles you linked: Nothing. The articles are fine. Nothing wrong with them. Wrong, though, is how you understand them. You misunderstand them. You read “quantum teleportation” and you think it’s teleportation, like you know from Science Fiction or new agy or ancient fairy tales. But it really is not. See, none of the articles speaks of the teleportation of a particle. Not a single atom, no single proton, no electron, no photon, no quark has been teleported there. It’s really true, I am not bullshitting you. Go to any phsyics-forum, sign up and ask “hey, I read this, and I think that, and someone told me I’m wrong: What now?” I swear to god you’ll be informed I’m right. I suggest that to anyone reading here and thinking that I’m not telling the truth.

You want me to explain it: Dude, it’s difficult. I don’t understand it myself anyhow deeply. But let me try. In quantum teleportation you have two quantums, indeed particles. And these two particles are “entangled”. They’re somehow connected. And then they are seperated, particle A goes to room A, particle B to room B. Relevant here is the entanglement, before you can perform quantum teleportation, you have to entangle the quantums first. So to assume that you could quantum teleport anything anyhwere is already false, because you need to have those pairs first. That’s important to understand. Or let’s say “know”.

Then you have the entangled pairs of particles in seperate rooms. Now both particles have characteristics, let’s say they would rotate clockwise. Quantum teleportation now means that you can manipulate the characteristics of particle A in room A and then the characteristics of particle B in room B change accordingly at the same time. So if you would cause particle A in room A to rotate counterclockwise, particle B in room B would start to rotate counterclockwise too.

That is quantum teleportation. It is actually an instand remote manipulation of characteristics and not teleportation in the sense of transporting something from A to B. No particle is moved from room A to room B, only the characteristics of entangled particles can be manipulated remotely. This is interesting for quantum computers, there you could have those entangled pairs and the computer would be able to compute data extremely fast. But tt is false knowledge to think that you could transport matter or energy, well, to be precise, it is false knowledge to think that it would be proven that matter can be transported via teleportation. Again: I’m not saying it is impossible, but it has neither been observed, nor has it been experimentally proven. I also would know of no functional theory that theoretically says it’s possible.

So it’s fine if you oppose me and back Surya Deva up, I too abuse you as an example of his target audience, people with no knowledge, I even call them and thereby you “stupid”. Because it is stupid to think data-transfer on the internet was teleportation or that the double-slit-experiment would be about teleportation or that quantum teleportation was about transporting matter. It, though, is not so much a shame to be stupid here, it’s a vast topic and it’s difficult. I dealt with such things for years, read a few dozen books, talked to physicist about it, both online and in the flesh. However, it is quite irresponsible to spread false knowledge, so even if you think Q’s a jerk and you must assist Surya “cutting edge” Deva in this great war, don’t cause suffering through false knowledge to others - and yourself. Just inform yourself about what I just explained to you, read books, read the articles open minded and closely, talk to physicists.

#167

Hi Surya Deva,

[quote]How come you guys are benevolent supernatural beings?

The word Deva means divine, luminous or shining one. If we say sombody is like a Deva we generally mean they are divine, godly, good. Our dharmic culture is divine, godly and saintly, not necessarily our people. We also use the word “Arya” which means noble, cultured and good - but nobody is Arya by their race or birth - they are Arya by their qualities.[/quote]boring…

Why did we develop a deva-culture and you an asura culture? It has nothing to do with race, but with the fact that our civilisations had different foundations and different values. Compare for example our origins in the indus valley civilisation with your origins in Sumer. Sumer shows very clear dichotomies of power of slaves and masters; have’s and have nots; oppressed and oppressor. This is reflected in its cities where giant monuments and Ziggagauts are built for the priest kings, and everybody else live like slaves in homes scattered around the kingdom in highly narrow and conjested conditions. This is also reflected in the later literature that develops from this tradition like the OT.
Boring…

In contrast in the Indus valley civilisation we see a middle class society where every home is connected to an underground sewage system via pipes, every home has a drinking well, bathroom with toilet, courtyard. The cities are highly planned with each home being located on a grid pattern surrounded by lanes and streets at perfect right angles. It is also clear that while everybody has the basic amenities, there is a class stratification with some areas having bigger houses. Not a single monument has been found or any kind of evidence of centralized rule.
Boring…

Sumeria is a system of centralized power and of clear and cut dichotomies in society - master and slave. Later this foundational ethos would lead to feudalism and capitalism.
Boring…

IVC is a system of decentralized power and complex stratification of society according to functional needs, but where everybody has the same basic amentities and equal participation in society.
Boring…

It is easy to see whose Deva and whose Asura here.
Boring.

Now, why did we develop an IVC like foundational ethos and you a Sumer like foundational ethos?
Exactly! :lol:

I find it very telling that the only possibility you can conceive of to explain this is race. Like I said, you suffer from a narrow mind.
:lol:

There are various possibilites why the IVC developed as it did - because of good climate and abundant resources in India allowed for Indians to make massive progress; because the values laid down by early Indians which became popular and hegemonic and defined its culture. Maybe because India was one of the first countries to be colonized by humans leaving Africa.

There is no such thing as race. We all belong to the same species, have the same brain capacity and the same biology. Culture are formed from practices by humans and not determined by genes. It is simply not true an Indian is genetically superior to any other race - there is no such thing as a genetically superior race - race is nothing more than a practical classification to show which part of the world a particular human group is concentrated and originally appeared in.

I am not racist and it will be clear to pretty much everybody on this forum from what I am saying. By constantly accusing me to be racist despite what I am saying, you are showing yourself to be an ignoramus. A lot of objective readers are going to see you in this way.
Finally! :lol: Before I get into your explanation, let my quickly clearify a few misunderstandings you like, totally accidently made, k? :lol:

I do agree that there are obvious differences between cultures, but I never thought that this has anything to do with race. Not at all, if I did, man, why would I condemn racism so much. But I thought that you would think it was due to the race, because even though I asked you a whole lot of times for an explanation, why India was adanced in ancient times, you never provided one but “that’s the way it is” or “India’s culture was great, because of the great culture”. You know? Understand? It looked and seemed like that was you only explanation: India was great because it was India. = Indian people. And how could that be a reason if you would not think it was something in the blood, in the genes, and therefore: In the race.

And in fact - you accidentially unintentionally innocently missed that too :lol: - I fully agree with your explanation, that the advances of India lie in the circumstances and in the circumstances only. Large land, rich of resources, mild in climate, all which allows for a relatively easy life, which in return allowed for enough time for the smartest of a people to do science and philosophy, when those disciplinces were only in their infancy. That’s why they made great progress, while other cultures were struggling with nature. We’re totally in agreement here: High five!

So: The circumstance caused one culture to develop that way, and the other to develop in another way. Now let’s take it further!

Since that is so, there is no point in condemning one and glorifying the other culture, because they’re both nothing but the product of said circumstances. It was impossible for the culture you call “demons” to develop differently. There is no choice involved, and therefore no guilt. A culture that lives in a much harsher climate, and has a lot of problems to only feed itself, will have no time to meditate, do philosophy, practice science, invent mathematics. Such a culture is busy with finding food, stocking it and building shelter for the winter. What such culture thinks about is how to improve their lives, how to survive. Another thing adds to it: Imagine you had a family and the winter was coming and you had not enough to eat, so you knew that you wouldn’t make it, or at least, your kids won’t. And then you’d know that another family lives near by and had some food to, and you knew, that if you’d take their food, then your kids would make it. What would you do? With no idea of ethics. Would you sit down and watch your kids die, die yourself, or would you pay that other family a visit with your club? I for example love my family so much that I’d basically think I’d do anything to protect my wife and son. Or if you’re the chief of a whole tribe and you see your people suffer, many die each winter, there is not enough to eat, life is hard. And you know of a tribe that lives the good life, has more than enough food, solid houses, knowledge, technology, medicine. What do you do? Admire them from afar or attack and rob them?

Don’t you agree that one can’t speak of a people as “Deva” and another as “Asura”? What you can call Deva and Asura are the circumstances that cause people doing this or that. Look at India for example. After being a great culture of peace and spirituality, it got conquered and robbed and raped and butchered, and now that it’s back free again, what does it do? Does it go back to it’s roots and become peaceful and spiritual again? No, it has changed due to the circumstances. It is now the biggest importer of arms, in 2009 it spent no less than 2.116.000.000 $ on weapons. It builds atomic bombs. The government is corrupt, the people suffer. And you have to keep in mind, that this is a nation that does already know about ethics and the causes of suffering and all that, other than an ancient tribe that ran naked through the jungle and had no scriptures, no Gurus, no Yoga, now philosophy.

Are we in agreement here too?

Also, if you look at the West and the mindset of regular western persons, like for example myself: We now have learned our lessons. We finally have ethics, we also are very interested in ending human suffering. It does not always work out, sure, as there are still powerful people who are greedy and have no morals. But the majority of western people is not interested in exploiting others, on the contrary, as I had noted before, do we donate a lot of our money, do we take care where our goods come from, how they were produced. We reject child-labour, surpression of people, barbaric laws. And we support peace, and freedom, and wealth, and education, and healthcare. Again: It does not always work out and there are still a lot of problems here too. But if you look at what’s going on: How can you still hold up your black-and-whitish world view and speak of Indian people generally as Devas and Western people generally as Asuras? Such thinking is the root of a lot of suffering, my friend.

When circumstances change, so do people. What’s necessary now is to provide every nation with Deva-circumstances. With wealth, that is, and freedom of speech and thought, and with education. Instead of preaching hate on some internet-forum to divide people, you should put your talents to use for that goal. Go to India and become a teacher, for example. Tell the kids about the periodic table of elements for example. Or of ancient Indian knowledge, for example. Learn Yoga and teach Yoga, the real deal, whereever. Become an engineer, drill wells, build dams, streets, bridges. Become a physicist and work on clean means of producing energy, become a biologist and provide food for the poor. Do good things instead of turning friends into enemies. Yoga lovers are your friends, they might not all be perfect, I’m the first to admit there are a lot who are hypocritical, a lot who are selfish, but still: They’re about Yoga and not producing weapons. With your strong beliefs in your culture, how can you put them to use so wrong? You’re the Asura here, the aggressive, hostile, hurtful, wedge-driving, dividing demon-force. With your extremism, you drive people away from the values you claim to hold up.

2.35 When non-violence in speech, thought and action is established, one’s aggressive nature is relinquished and others abandon hostility in one’s presence.
Come to your senses.

#168

So much wording…

Simplicity is the part of the enlightenment…

The one who lives Yamas and Niyamas every moment without thinking about them is enlightened.

Spiritual knowledge is a gift, and understanding of spiritual knowledge is a GIFT from the GOD too… some of us just will never understand what is enlightenment about…regardless of how many explanations and books they will read…

Namaste,

CM

#169

[QUOTE=High Wolf;58236]And the debate continues. Sorry Q, I couldnt take it up where you left. Was busy with my stuff. Was it double-slit experiment and racism we were discussing? Yeah, I showed you evidence and you kept saying that and that arent relevant. If you dont acknowledge my sources, then show me yours. Are you a theoretical physicist cracking on some outstanding stuff? If not, then give me your account of double-slit experiment. Then I’ll prove it to you that quantum superposition is a subatomic teleportation :wink:

Yes, I googled to dig up articles. Wats wrong with it? Authors upload their data on the net, and thats how you find sources. We are living in the age of information, if you notice :rolleyes: Though, you dont hesitate to bring up cheesy and biased wikipedia writing when it comes to a very unscientific topic like racism?

Anyhow, apparently, I realized that you and I are using different terminologies. In that respect, I find myself naturally supporting Surya on many things cos he’s thinking at the cutting edge. Well, on the other hand, you don’t. Surya said something spot-on: you shoot your school knowledge onto the table, a knowledge that is getting increasingly obsolete. And then icing your cake with the racism crap? I know it isnt white, but it isnt black either…[/QUOTE]

High Wolf, a better word would be “Quantum Entanglement.” Teleportation is merely a rough “description” of what actually happens (a particle indirectly effecting another particle, even when they are separated by huge distances, through changes on a third, “intermediate” particle).

#170

I do agree that there are obvious differences between cultures, but I never thought that this has anything to do with race. Not at all, if I did, man, why would I condemn racism so much. But I thought that you would think it was due to the race, because even though I asked you a whole lot of times for an explanation, why India was adanced in ancient times, you never provided one but “that’s the way it is” or “India’s culture was great, because of the great culture”. You know? Understand? It looked and seemed like that was you only explanation: India was great because it was India. = Indian people. And how could that be a reason if you would not think it was something in the blood, in the genes, and therefore: In the race.

So you presumed the only possible reason I would think that the Indian culture was superior was because of race? Just as you presumed the only explanation in the youtube video you saw of the Indian concert where the police stopped some people in the audience from dancing was that dancing was banned in India. You suffer from a narrow mind.

When there are several possiblities don’t presume one to be true. This is the mark of a fool.

And in fact - you accidentially unintentionally innocently missed that too - I fully agree with your explanation, that the advances of India lie in the circumstances and in the circumstances only. Large land, rich of resources, mild in climate, all which allows for a relatively easy life, which in return allowed for enough time for the smartest of a people to do science and philosophy, when those disciplinces were only in their infancy. That’s why they made great progress, while other cultures were struggling with nature. We’re totally in agreement here: High five!

Yes, this is the most likely possibility. Indians had abundant resources and hospitable climate fulfilling their basic material desires, which naturally leads to one become more reflective and contemplative, leading to science, philosophy, ethics, literature etc. This work stated in 7000BCE was completed by 1BCE. After that, the remainder of history was about commenting on previous works or adding to previous works.

We did not just achieive partial scientific development, but full scientific development. We claim to know the entire nature of reality, the complete mind-matter continuum(you don’t even have such a term in your tradition, you use primitive space-time continuum) and the answers to all the univesal philosphical questions(Who am I? Why I am here? Where am I going? What is the world made of? How was the world created How should human suffering be ended etc etc.)

And why did we achieive this? Because we had a scientific culture longer than you did. Your age of enlightenment begins in the 18th century ours began in 3000BCE.
You will rediscover everything we discovered using our own scientific methods in due course. Like I said, you have already made many of our discoveries:

Gravity, laws of motion and force vectors: 18th century
Atoms, laws of thermodynamics, wave theory of sound: 19th century
Cyclic expansion and contraction of the universe, equivalence of energy and matter, quantum and observer efffects, nanomedicine, Paninian logic: 20th century

What you lack the humilty to do is acknowledge that we are your superiors in science and have had a scientific tradition long before you did. You can learn from us, but we have nothing to learn from you. We can still teach you a LOT. Here is what you still don’t know in the 21st century:

  1. The mind-matter continuum. You do not know that what you call mind and matter are actually the same matter and all matter first begins as mind. You know of atoms and even quarks, but you have no idea what tanmatras are. The very simply equation:
    CONSCIOUSNESS + FIELD = REALITY AS IT APPEARS
  • Is still not understood by you.

  1. mind-matter interactions. Although now you do have a century of research into very basic mind matter interactions like telepathy, telekinesis, regulation of involuntary bodily processes, psychosomatic effects, observer effect, which is rejected by the mainstream, you have not even scraped 1% of the capacity of the mind and its mastery over matter. How the mind can be used to penetrate into the deepest level of the mind-matter continuum and create changes.

  2. Meditation. You are still not aware that meditation is the most advanced method of science. The mind is connected to all of reality and access information within it like we access information on the internet. There is no need to go out and do scientific experiments, take painstreaking and imperfect measurements and interpret them using theories - just meditate and all knowledge will come to you.

  3. Subltle body. You are still not aware of the existence of the subltle body, although research in the late 20th century on OBES, NDE’s and reincarnation has indicated its existence - you still know barely anything about it, what it is constituted of, what are its structures and the causes for the subtle body entering into the physical dimension. You don’t even know there are more dimensions beyond this one as a fact - heck even the existence of the quantum has thrown you off.

  4. You are still not aware of the regulation systems in the human body of vata, pitta kapha and how all disease is due to an imbalance in the system. The diseases can all be treated by simply identifying which system has been bought out of balance, and bringing it back into balance.

  5. You still do not have a perfect language like Sanskrit, which not only is mathematically perfect like machine code, it is also a natural language and it sounds are directly correlated to the human mind- body system. Panini’s logic is now considered 21st century logic.

From our perspective your scientific knowledge is extremely backwards.

#171

Since that is so, there is no point in condemning one and glorifying the other culture, because they’re both nothing but the product of said circumstances. It was impossible for the culture you call “demons” to develop differently. There is no choice involved, and therefore no guilt. A culture that lives in a much harsher climate, and has a lot of problems to only feed itself, will have no time to meditate, do philosophy, practice science, invent mathematics. Such a culture is busy with finding food, stocking it and building shelter for the winter. What such culture thinks about is how to improve their lives, how to survive.

Every criminal justifies their crimes by blaming outside factors. A serial killer says, “I had a poor upbringing, I got abused, I struggled etc” but this is no justification. Your culture has been like a serial killer on this planet exterminating entire races, raping, enslaving, corrupting, destroying with impunity. You can blame your circumstances all you want, but it does not excuse the fact you are barbarians. Although I admit today you are more civilised now after having looted every other culture on the planet and becoming prosperous of their backs, you are still part of the same foundation that was set in Sumer and barbarism still is very much running your cultural stream. Hence why despite being the richest nations on Earth today, you are still going around the planet exploiting other cultures and invading them.

Your civilisational foundation is wrong itself. It needs to be removed and replaced with a dharmic foundation before you can develop a deva culture.

#172

[QUOTE=FlexPenguin;57554]I think “enlightenment” is akin to “awareness”, and is tiered by degrees. This may not be only reserved to humans, as many biologists claim.[/QUOTE]

[B]Correct.[/B]
(more or less)

#173

On the subject of quantum teleportation:

High Wolf and Q are both partially correct. We have not in fact teleported any solid matter at all, quantum teleportation literally means information has been teleported between the two. This is not even a subatomic telelportation, because this is information is not a physical substance, it is something non-physical. It operates in a realm of reality which is beyond our physical spce and time. So Q is right as of yet we have not teleported any matter even an electron or photon. But does this mean it is not possible? Until the test of the Bell inequalities it was thought that the subatomic world and the atomic world behaved in a completely opposite way - reality inside the atom did not seem to exist, everything was everywhere at once(superpositioning) and everything was entangled. There was no time and space and no physical laws. Particles behaved in really weird ways they would disappear and reappear somewhere else called quantum jumps (this is indeed an actual physical teleportation) It was impossible to predict with any certainty where a particle would appear because one could not know both the position and the momentum of a particle at the same time. In contrast the reality outside of the atom behaved in very predictable ways, everything was separate and occupied a particular position. The behaviour could be predicted with certainty both the position and momentum. This became known as the complimentary principle, first put forward by the Copenhagen school.

The complimentary principle has been accepted by the mainstream because it is the least controversial and this way you can have both a classical physics to deal with the world outside of the atom and quantum physics to deal with the world inside the atom. But this was not satisfying to many people who found it completely ilogical that the fundamental level of reality would not have no reality(!), and the secondary reality would. How can you put together one imaginary thing and another imaginary thing and get a real thing. But like I said nobody wanted to deal with the controversial implication that reality did not exist, so everybody just accepted the complimentary principle.

Then John Bell devised the test of Bell inequalities to test for two conditions 1) Does space and time really exist and 2) Is it the observer that collapses the quantum state. If the inequality was violated it would mean either one of these conditions are true or both are. The test was carried out by Alain aspect(who himself believes in realism) and it was found the bell inequality was indeed violated. Leading to the conclusion that space and time did not exist at all and/or reality did not exist. The least most controversial conclusion was accepted by the mainstream scientific community - space and time did not exist.

This was the end of course of classical physics which hinges on the foundation of space and time, but the conclusion was hard to accept for the mainstream, who still tried to stick to the complimentary principle. You hear Q keep on repeating that first we need to create the quantum entanglements to transmit information and this can only be done with subatomic particles and not atoms or anything bigger. This is incorrect, the entire universe is already quantumly entangled as Bell has proven, space and time is merely a perception, it does not exist really. We know that as a matter of fact now. What we do is simply exploit this feature of reality by finding some way to make particles behave in a quantumized way. Later, Legett demonstrated that even bigger matter can be quantamized. He also developed the test of Legett’s inequality to test specifically for the condition of reality. His experiment was conducted by Austrian physicists and indeed his inequality was violated - proving reality did not exist.

Some of the world’s strangest mysteries were up for discussion on the inaugural day of an international conference in Kolkata today. And the debate was in the hands of the world’s top theoretical physicists gathering for the first time in India. Among those attending are legendary cosmologist Sir Roger Penrose, 2003 Nobel prize winner Anthony Legget, French experimental physicist Alain Aspect and famous cryptologist Giles Brassard.

Can matter be ‘‘teleported’’ — that is, shifted across space instantaneously as in some sci-fi flick? Can information pass from one person to another instantaneously without any physical communication? Can there be unbreakable codes for communication? These were some of the ideas and arguments that scientists discussed at the conference organized by the S N Bose Institute to commemorate 75 years of quantum entanglement.

Einstein, along with Podolsky and Rosen, published a paper in 1936 pointing out what he thought was a fatal flaw in quantum mechanics — the newly discovered theory of how elementary particles exist and behave. Known as the EPR paradox, the paper described a situation in which two particles separated by millions of miles could still be entangled — tampering with one could instantaneously change the other. In a bizarre twist of history, Einstein’s objection was proved wrong in the '70s by experiments — spooky action at a distance did take place.

This has led to several attempts at applying quantum entanglement for practical problems, besides throwing light on the big questions like black holes, Big Bang and the fate of the Universe.

Anthony Legget of the University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign, presented evidence of how not just tiny particles but even bigger molecules exhibit entanglement. G S Agarwal, formerly at the Physical Research Laboratory in Ahmedabad and currently at the Oklahoma University, described experiments which prove counter-intuitive entanglement between particles. A detection of one particle affects the others.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-01-07/india/28371879_1_entanglement-particles-physicists

Simply put there is no reality and space and time, and the perception of reality, space and time are completely illusory - not real - a sense illusion. As has been evidenced by this equation the Hindus have known since forever:

CONSCIOUSNESS + FIELD = REALITY AS IT APPEARS

This means because all matter, including the matter that makes up your body is just a perception. It is possible to make it behave in a quantumized way and then you can do anything quantum objects can - teleport, levitate, appear everywhere at once, obtain free energy - the world is your oyster.

This is exactly what Patanjali says in order to teleport your body you must first quantamize it then it will enter the akasha(the quantum) and you can appear and disappear at any point you desire. Distance then is not a hindrance.

#174

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;58279]On the subject of quantum teleportation:

CONSCIOUSNESS + FIELD = REALITY AS IT APPEARS

This means because all matter, including the matter that makes up your body is just a perception. It is possible to make it behave in a quantumized way and then you can do anything quantum objects can - teleport, levitate, appear everywhere at once, obtain free energy - the world is your oyster.

This is exactly what Patanjali says in order to teleport your body you must first quantamize it then it will enter the akasha(the quantum) and you can appear and disappear at any point you desire. Distance then is not a hindrance.[/QUOTE]

Correct.
(more or less)

#175

[QUOTE=The Scales;58273][B]Correct.[/B]
(more or less)[/QUOTE]

Say…that puts me in a tie with SD. Don’t I get extra points for brevity, as CityMonk suggests? What’s the tie breaker?

#176

“We did not just achieive partial scientific development, but full scientific development.”

There is no such thing as full scientific development. As science belongs to the realm of knowledge as anything else, you may gather oceans of knowledge into ones mind - it amounts to the same, knowledge by nature is limited. And that is why there is no such thing as a full understanding of anything whatsoever, understanding in itself implies limitation. The moment your knowledge loses all it’s boundaries -it ceases to exist.

“We claim to know the entire nature of reality”

One should be clear as to what kind of “knowing” this is. If one means the mere gathering of facts and information, then the insight of all the Buddhas and mystics has nothing to do with such a thing.

“and the answers to all the univesal philosphical questions(Who am I? Why I am here? Where am I going? What is the world made of? How was the world created How should human suffering be ended”

As far as such concerns as the meaning of life - such questions are unanswerable. Life and existence is so vast, that it cannot be reduced to a single purpose. In fact, to reduce one’s life to a meaning or a purpose is to live the life of a slave, now all of your energies has to be centered around fulfillment of the purpose. And even if there was a purpose to be fulfilled, even then - once it comes to it’s fulfillment -now one’s existence is beyond all meaning. The moment anything comes to a completion, it becomes reduced to a corpse.

Freedom is such, that it requires no need for any purpose whatsoever. For those who are truly liberated, the very idea of liberation disappears - the very idea of freedom arises only if one has been living as a slave. The same is the case with all of those who have been asking the question of the purpose of life - because this life in itself has not managed to bring oneself to a contentment, one naturally starts asking the question as to what is the meaning of all this, whether there is something beyond all of this mundane existence. And like this - one continues postponing one’s freedom always somewhere far away on the other shore - either to some God, some paradise, or some Nirvana. But always it remains the same - one’s liberation is always residing on the other side. It does not matter which side of the lake you are standing, but always it remains on the other side.

Once, Manjusri, one of Gautama’s awakened disciples was walking towards the gate and then spontaneously stopped. Gautama Buddha, seeing this, said, “Manjusri, manjusri, why don’t you enter?”

Manjusri said, “I do not see myself as outside. Why enter?”

Manjusri

#177

"I think “enlightenment” is akin to “awareness”

Certainly, as a way of being, it has much to do with deepening of your awareness as to your own being. But as far as your original nature itself is concerned - one’s true nature is even beyond enlightenment - it is not something that can become enlightened. So when one speaks of “enlightenment”, one should ask the question of what it is which becomes “enlightened”.

#178

There is no such thing as full scientific development. As science belongs to the realm of knowledge as anything else, you may gather oceans of knowledge into ones mind - it amounts to the same, knowledge by nature is limited. And that is why there is no such thing as a full understanding of anything whatsoever, understanding in itself implies limitation. The moment your knowledge loses all it’s boundaries -it ceases to exist.

You repeat the same thing in every thread? Knowledge, language mind is limited. The ultimate reality is beyond knowledge, words, mind etc. Yeah Einstein, we know that. Do you have to keep telling us the obvious? Unfortunately, whether you like it or not, we are limited in this world, so we have to make the best of what we can. If the first humans thought like you, “Oh, knowledge and language is limited, we will never know anything completely” then we would not have invented language, the wheel or even the fire.

I come from a culture where knowledge is worshipped. Why do we worship knowledge? Because knowledge takes out of darkness and into the light. It illuminates our mind, clears our misunderstandings and shows us the path forward. Truly, knowledge is great.

#179

[QUOTE=Quetzalcoatl;58252]

Then you have the entangled pairs of particles in seperate rooms. Now both particles have characteristics, let’s say they would rotate clockwise. Quantum teleportation now means that you can manipulate the characteristics of particle A in room A and then the characteristics of particle B in room B change accordingly at the same time. So if you would cause particle A in room A to rotate counterclockwise, particle B in room B would start to rotate counterclockwise too.

That is quantum teleportation. It is actually an instand remote manipulation of characteristics and not teleportation in the sense of transporting something from A to B. No particle is moved from room A to room B, only the characteristics of entangled particles can be manipulated remotely. This is interesting for quantum computers, there you could have those entangled pairs and the computer would be able to compute data extremely fast. [B]But tt is false knowledge to think that you could transport matter or energy, well, to be precise, it is false knowledge to think that it would be proven that matter can be transported via teleportation.[/B] Again: I’m not saying it is impossible, but it has neither been observed, nor has it been experimentally proven. I also would know of no functional theory that theoretically says it’s possible.
[/QUOTE]

When it comes to modern scientific method, there is no such a thing as “false knowledge,” per se, but false information. What becomes false information is usually happens after the application of a particular theory has been tested and the findings have been peer-reviewed, and finally “not recommended”. This is the academic tradition. And what I am giving you is a mere intrepretation, which is yet to be tested, just what you gave above is also an intepretation. I have explained my rationale to you, and cited several sources, and you have explained your rationale to you, uncited. So whose information is more reliable here?

Matter can be teleported from point A to B. They are already doing this in laboratories, as I have shown to you, in subatomic realm dominated by quantum mechanics. And since this is happening on microcosmic level, its only logical to think that this could happen on macrocosmic level too.

Yes I believe in my own perception, and you think this is wrong? Then how do you think all those physicists carved off their own stuff? By sheer information obtained through having well-read all those theories? No, kind sir. Through belief, through insight, through inspiration. Einstein said that not even one second he stopped believing in his theory before its acclaim. When her secretary asked “what if your theory is wrong” he replied “then God must be wrong, because my theory is right.” Now, this sort of thing is very unique to human being, the “believing,” for we are not robots programmed to masturbate on information.

I told you that you think within the box of scientific givens. Thats why you don’t attune to my grasp on the matter. Which is fine. Yet I shall no longer discuss with you on this stuff, unless you bring me some sources of your own. And you can continue to call me “stupid,” whatever; do you even think I will care a bit? :rolleyes:

#180

I think I will just leave this here:

Newtonian Addition of Velocities: v1 + v2 = v12
Relativistic Addition of Velocities: v12 = (v1 + v2)/(1 + (v1 + v2)/c^2)

Newtonian Momentum: p = mv
Relativistic Momentum: p = mv/(1 - (v^2/c^2))^(1/2)

Mass increasing with increasing speed: m = m0/(1 - v^2/c^2)^(1/2)

Rest Energy: E = m0c^2
Relativistic Energy: E = m0c^2/(1 - v^2/c^2)^(1/2)

Relativistic Kinetic Energy: K = m0c^2/(1 - v^2/c^2)^(1/2) - m0c^2

As you can see, the differences between relativistic and Newtonian momentum are incredibly small on normal Earth scales.

For example:

Mass: 3 kg, Velocity: 4 m/s

Newtonian: 12 kgm/s
Relativistic: 12/(1 - 16/(3 * 10^8)^2)^(1/2) = 12/(1 - 1.7810^-16)^(1/2) = 12 kg*m/s

Now, if we had

Mass: 3 kg, Velocity: .8c

Newtonian: 3 kg * (3 * 10^8) * .8 = [B]7.2 * 10^8 m/s[/B]
Relativistic: (7.2 * 10^8)/(1 - .8^2) = [B]2 * 10^9 m/s[/B]

Got it?

Einstein is totally right, but Newton isn’t necessarily wrong.

Surya Deva, I have to laugh at your rejection of Coulomb. Why? Because you forgot the instances when the observer collapses the wave-function.

Hurr-durr.