Hi Surya Deva,
[quote]How come you guys are benevolent supernatural beings?
The word Deva means divine, luminous or shining one. If we say sombody is like a Deva we generally mean they are divine, godly, good. Our dharmic culture is divine, godly and saintly, not necessarily our people. We also use the word “Arya” which means noble, cultured and good - but nobody is Arya by their race or birth - they are Arya by their qualities.[/quote]boring…
Why did we develop a deva-culture and you an asura culture? It has nothing to do with race, but with the fact that our civilisations had different foundations and different values. Compare for example our origins in the indus valley civilisation with your origins in Sumer. Sumer shows very clear dichotomies of power of slaves and masters; have’s and have nots; oppressed and oppressor. This is reflected in its cities where giant monuments and Ziggagauts are built for the priest kings, and everybody else live like slaves in homes scattered around the kingdom in highly narrow and conjested conditions. This is also reflected in the later literature that develops from this tradition like the OT.
In contrast in the Indus valley civilisation we see a middle class society where every home is connected to an underground sewage system via pipes, every home has a drinking well, bathroom with toilet, courtyard. The cities are highly planned with each home being located on a grid pattern surrounded by lanes and streets at perfect right angles. It is also clear that while everybody has the basic amenities, there is a class stratification with some areas having bigger houses. Not a single monument has been found or any kind of evidence of centralized rule.
Sumeria is a system of centralized power and of clear and cut dichotomies in society - master and slave. Later this foundational ethos would lead to feudalism and capitalism.
IVC is a system of decentralized power and complex stratification of society according to functional needs, but where everybody has the same basic amentities and equal participation in society.
It is easy to see whose Deva and whose Asura here.
Now, why did we develop an IVC like foundational ethos and you a Sumer like foundational ethos?
I find it very telling that the only possibility you can conceive of to explain this is race. Like I said, you suffer from a narrow mind.
There are various possibilites why the IVC developed as it did - because of good climate and abundant resources in India allowed for Indians to make massive progress; because the values laid down by early Indians which became popular and hegemonic and defined its culture. Maybe because India was one of the first countries to be colonized by humans leaving Africa.
There is no such thing as race. We all belong to the same species, have the same brain capacity and the same biology. Culture are formed from practices by humans and not determined by genes. It is simply not true an Indian is genetically superior to any other race - there is no such thing as a genetically superior race - race is nothing more than a practical classification to show which part of the world a particular human group is concentrated and originally appeared in.
I am not racist and it will be clear to pretty much everybody on this forum from what I am saying. By constantly accusing me to be racist despite what I am saying, you are showing yourself to be an ignoramus. A lot of objective readers are going to see you in this way.
Finally! :lol: Before I get into your explanation, let my quickly clearify a few misunderstandings you like, totally accidently made, k? :lol:
I do agree that there are obvious differences between cultures, but I never thought that this has anything to do with race. Not at all, if I did, man, why would I condemn racism so much. But I thought that you would think it was due to the race, because even though I asked you a whole lot of times for an explanation, why India was adanced in ancient times, you never provided one but “that’s the way it is” or “India’s culture was great, because of the great culture”. You know? Understand? It looked and seemed like that was you only explanation: India was great because it was India. = Indian people. And how could that be a reason if you would not think it was something in the blood, in the genes, and therefore: In the race.
And in fact - you accidentially unintentionally innocently missed that too :lol: - I fully agree with your explanation, that the advances of India lie in the circumstances and in the circumstances only. Large land, rich of resources, mild in climate, all which allows for a relatively easy life, which in return allowed for enough time for the smartest of a people to do science and philosophy, when those disciplinces were only in their infancy. That’s why they made great progress, while other cultures were struggling with nature. We’re totally in agreement here: High five!
So: The circumstance caused one culture to develop that way, and the other to develop in another way. Now let’s take it further!
Since that is so, there is no point in condemning one and glorifying the other culture, because they’re both nothing but the product of said circumstances. It was impossible for the culture you call “demons” to develop differently. There is no choice involved, and therefore no guilt. A culture that lives in a much harsher climate, and has a lot of problems to only feed itself, will have no time to meditate, do philosophy, practice science, invent mathematics. Such a culture is busy with finding food, stocking it and building shelter for the winter. What such culture thinks about is how to improve their lives, how to survive. Another thing adds to it: Imagine you had a family and the winter was coming and you had not enough to eat, so you knew that you wouldn’t make it, or at least, your kids won’t. And then you’d know that another family lives near by and had some food to, and you knew, that if you’d take their food, then your kids would make it. What would you do? With no idea of ethics. Would you sit down and watch your kids die, die yourself, or would you pay that other family a visit with your club? I for example love my family so much that I’d basically think I’d do anything to protect my wife and son. Or if you’re the chief of a whole tribe and you see your people suffer, many die each winter, there is not enough to eat, life is hard. And you know of a tribe that lives the good life, has more than enough food, solid houses, knowledge, technology, medicine. What do you do? Admire them from afar or attack and rob them?
Don’t you agree that one can’t speak of a people as “Deva” and another as “Asura”? What you can call Deva and Asura are the circumstances that cause people doing this or that. Look at India for example. After being a great culture of peace and spirituality, it got conquered and robbed and raped and butchered, and now that it’s back free again, what does it do? Does it go back to it’s roots and become peaceful and spiritual again? No, it has changed due to the circumstances. It is now the biggest importer of arms, in 2009 it spent no less than 2.116.000.000 $ on weapons. It builds atomic bombs. The government is corrupt, the people suffer. And you have to keep in mind, that this is a nation that does already know about ethics and the causes of suffering and all that, other than an ancient tribe that ran naked through the jungle and had no scriptures, no Gurus, no Yoga, now philosophy.
Are we in agreement here too?
Also, if you look at the West and the mindset of regular western persons, like for example myself: We now have learned our lessons. We finally have ethics, we also are very interested in ending human suffering. It does not always work out, sure, as there are still powerful people who are greedy and have no morals. But the majority of western people is not interested in exploiting others, on the contrary, as I had noted before, do we donate a lot of our money, do we take care where our goods come from, how they were produced. We reject child-labour, surpression of people, barbaric laws. And we support peace, and freedom, and wealth, and education, and healthcare. Again: It does not always work out and there are still a lot of problems here too. But if you look at what’s going on: How can you still hold up your black-and-whitish world view and speak of Indian people generally as Devas and Western people generally as Asuras? Such thinking is the root of a lot of suffering, my friend.
When circumstances change, so do people. What’s necessary now is to provide every nation with Deva-circumstances. With wealth, that is, and freedom of speech and thought, and with education. Instead of preaching hate on some internet-forum to divide people, you should put your talents to use for that goal. Go to India and become a teacher, for example. Tell the kids about the periodic table of elements for example. Or of ancient Indian knowledge, for example. Learn Yoga and teach Yoga, the real deal, whereever. Become an engineer, drill wells, build dams, streets, bridges. Become a physicist and work on clean means of producing energy, become a biologist and provide food for the poor. Do good things instead of turning friends into enemies. Yoga lovers are your friends, they might not all be perfect, I’m the first to admit there are a lot who are hypocritical, a lot who are selfish, but still: They’re about Yoga and not producing weapons. With your strong beliefs in your culture, how can you put them to use so wrong? You’re the Asura here, the aggressive, hostile, hurtful, wedge-driving, dividing demon-force. With your extremism, you drive people away from the values you claim to hold up.
2.35 When non-violence in speech, thought and action is established, one’s aggressive nature is relinquished and others abandon hostility in one’s presence.
Come to your senses.