What is nothingness

Spirituality
#41

Surya,

I think such traditions simply mystify and overcomplicate what really is a very basic matter

Zen has nothing whatsoever to do with mystifying anything. On the contrary, most of the mystical traditions have been mystifying everything, trying to give you ready-made answers and all kinds of assumptions which have nothing to do with direct experience. Zen is a very straightfroward approach. Without any dogmatism, belief system, or philosophy - one can only enter inwards onto oneself to find the Truth.

I studied it somewhat at university and when we discussed in class we found it to be pretty pointless.

That was your first mistake of trying to understand Zen in a university setting. That is like trying to understand Truth in a university setting, there is no difference.

Zen is an irrational tradition - literally it rejects using any kind of rationality

Zen is not irrational either, it simply wants you to come to a very basic understanding that Truth is not something that can be understood through the intellect, and all of your trying to think about it is just like trying to swallow the whole ocean in a single gulp. If Zen were irrational, you would not have any of the sermons of the masters, nor would you have intellectual models such as the Five Ranks of Zen, or the Ox Herding Pictures. Zen is not for or against anything, it simply recognizes that when it comes to the Truth - it is something that is to be seen directly. And no amount of philosophizing can function as a substitute - on the contrary, because it is mans tendency to cling to almost anything that comes in his path, most of your knowledge functions as a veil rather than a stepping stone. Knowledge has never been a problem, it is clinging to your knowledge which is a problem. And there is nothingZenabout this. Even Patanjali has said that to have attraction towards or aversion from anything which enters your experience is one of the greatest psychological hindrances for ones liberation.

If one approaches a Zen "master" with a question, they do not give a straight answer, but often a riddle, or they may do something completely random and nonsensical like stick their tongue at you, laugh out loud or hit you with a stick

More ignorance. One thing that is important to understand is that when you are reading most of the koans, the background is almost never given. Without understanding the background, you will never understand how such a simple statement - or even a mere gesture, is capable of bringing a disciple to their awakening. Most of the disciples who have approached the masters have already been undergoing enormous discipline and training, in such a way that all that is needed is just a push in the right direction. The responses of the masters to their question are not riddles, riddles are things that are to be solved. Their responses are simply meant to cut down your habitual patterns of thinking. That is the whole strategy of Zen - to bring your consciousness to a state where it is free from the habitual patterns of the mind. That is the function of hitting the disciple with a stick, it is not merely hitting the disciple with a stick. If the master strikes you at the right moment, with the right understanding - then it is even possible that you may come to an awakening. Because in those moments - your mind has come to a space which is absolutely silent, raw, spotnaneous, and receptive. In fact, this happens to people everyday, though they are not aware of it. There are moments when your mind has become spontaneously silent and a kind of samadhi arises. If, for example, you are entering into a forest and suddenly become attacked by a wild animal - just for a brief moment or two, your mind has become spontaneous, natural, fresh - empty of thought and alert. The striking of the master is just one of the many devices Zen has discovered to bring your mind to a state which is free from the habitual patterns of thought and its programming. Millions upon millions of people have become awakened through these methods. It is not even something unique to Zen, the yogic sciences have been familiar with it. Several masters have used striking as a means for the same. When Totapuri slashed Ramakrishnas forehead while he was in meditation, that was precisely the function. Because he could not go beyond the vision of Kali in his meditation, his mind was far too caught up in it`s programming and habitual patterns. Ramakrishna tried several times to move beyond it, and it was fruitless. Totapuri, with just one slash of a piece of glass on the forehead, solved the problem in a single moment - and Ramakrishna came to his awakening.

And this is what I did when I answered your question. I gave you a straight, logical answer

What you have done is likely just given her another teddy bear to hold onto.

It is impossible for there to be a nothing

When Zen has spoken of Shunyata, Emptiness, it is not different than what the Hindus have referred to as Shunya, which is basically synonymous. When they say emptiness, they do not mean nothingness. They simply mean that which is empty of all limiting qualities. Even to call it nothingness is to give it a limiting quality, that is another idea that is to be emptied out. There is something there - real and alive, but only you cannot understand it through thought.

#42

Instant enlightenment is just as cheap and shoddy as instant coffee.

I am sorry to break it to you enlightenment is not something that happens instantly, it requires lifetimes of hard work. Nothing comes easy in life - you have work for it. This is another law to keep in mind:

THE LAW OF SACRIFICE

What the Zen are calling enlightenment is nothing more than the emptying of the conscious mind. Unfortunately there is a vast unconscious mind of which the conscious mind is just a tip of the ice berg which cannot get emptied so easily with a stick to the head or a silly riddle. This requires lifetimes of very hard work.

Nothing ever happens instantly. I do not grow up instantly - I grow up in stages. The tree does not grow instantly - it grows in stages. The universe did not grow instantly - it grew in stages. Matter does not come into being instantly it grows in stages. This is because everything obeys cause and effect: you cannot have large before small, many before one, gross before subtle.

Even an idiot can see that nature has laws. In fact such an idiot did in fact clock it - the first caveman when he harnessed fire and realised he could use it to keep himself warm, to cook food, to send smoke signals and as a weapon.

#43

Surya,

‘‘What the Zen are calling enlightenment is nothing more than the emptying of the conscious mind.’’

That is not the state which has been spoken of in Zen. It is fundamentally the same experience that has been spoken of in the yogic sciences. And like the yogic sciences, one’s awakening is to be integrated. In yoga, when one’s samadhi becomes as spontaneous as one’s own breath it is known as Sahaja Samadhi. That is what in Zen has been called "Neither man nor circumstances are deprived’’. Neither one’s inner dimension is abandoned, neither one’s outer experience is abandoned, one’s samadhi has integrated both the inner and the outer in harmony.

‘‘Instant enlightenment is just as cheap and shoddy as instant coffee.’’

It is both instantaneous and gradual in the same way that water gradually starts becoming hotter and hotter until it instantly starts boiling.

#44

That is not the state which has been spoken of in Zen. It is fundamentally the same experience that has been spoken of in the yogic sciences. And like the yogic sciences, one’s awakening is to be integrated. In yoga, when one’s samadhi becomes as spontaneous as one’s own breath it is known as Sahaja Samadhi. That is what in Zen has been called "Neither man nor circumstances are deprived’’. Neither one’s inner dimension is abandoned, neither one’s outer experience is abandoned, one’s samadhi has integrated both the inner and the outer in harmony.

I have to bear in mind that Zen is a religion - Zen Buddhism. It is a religion that spread that from India into China and then Japan and combined with Taoism. When they were first exposed to ideas like “samadhi” they were bound to put their own spin on it, and that is where this instant enlightenment idea arose. Yes, it is possible to disorient the mind and get an “exotic state of consciousness” but that does not mean it is enlightenment, it simply means you experienced something that you have not experienced before. It is then easy to think for a Zen buddhist this is just like Samadhi explained in Yoga. But what they overlook is that if you were in samadhi you would become god-like.

I have noticed just how easily the word “enlightenment” gets bandied about in Zen and in stories of Zen as if enlightenment is so easy to get you can get in a box of cereal. “Master said x, and student became enlightened there and then”, “Master hit student, student became enlightened” so it is no surprise you resonate with this tradition. This is after all where you got most of your beliefs from.

But if you are going to be honest then don’t compare this dubious Zen enlightenment to the Yoga divine enlightenment where you become god-like. The reason I have rejected all people on your enlightenment list(a simpe name drop list you have given little thought) is because they are not gods, but masters. All of them still are very much human, but just more developed humans.

If we compare the best humans on our planet to say another planet, Buddha for us which we think is 100%, maybe nothing more than 40%. The only people I accept as near fully enlightened is Lord Krishna and Lord Rama. Thus this term “enlightenment” as we use it colliqually is relative. In Yoga it is not relative - you are either a god or you are not. You either have full mastery over prakriti or you do not.

This is why we have titles like swami, paramhansa, rishi, maharishi, avatar, deva, mahadeva, brahma. We do not declare at any stage “I am enlightened” because such a fool is stunting their spiritual growth by becoming complacent with the stage they are at. There is a cosmic heirarchy out there ranging from a blade of grass to Brahma(Samkhyakarika) and unless you are Brahma himself, do not claim to have reached the final goal.

You are not even at the level of swami dear. I would not even say you are an ordinary Yogi.

#45

I will add stop being a fool and go around claiming you are enlightened. However, you are allowed to claim as far as you have got. I only got as far as Pratyahara and I’ve only experienced it twice or three times in my life - in cosmic terms I have moved barely an inch ahead. I only lay claim to as far as I’ve got in study of spirituality. I am not modest in that regard and many here who are honest will note I am exceptionally knowledgable and have an exceptional understanding of Yoga. Again, no credit to me, I just happened to learn from the best tradition and was gifted with an innate intuition to understand it. I was probably part of this tradition in a previous life. I can help you as far as knowledge and logic is concerned for this is my area of mastery, but when it comes to experience I can only tell you how to get as far as pratyahara.

I have had a few dozen spontaneous experiences such as OBES and spontaneous samyama experience which lasted only a few seconds, and I have an unusual precognitive ability as in whatever I say tends to come true. But I have no control over these. These are obviously past life attainments I have forgotten in this life. I know I am more developed spiritually than the average person and this was clear to my parents and relatives as well from the time I was a child. I have been told I come from a very spiritual family lineage. My grandfather was very spiritual for instance and had developed exceptional powers, he even predicted the day and time of his death. As a child I was very wise and silent, I use to go to sleep in prayer posture. I could sense energies. I lost all that while growing up - what Blake calls a corruption of innocence.

#46

Surya,

“I have to bear in mind that Zen is a religion - Zen Buddhism”

That shows how ignorant you are of the matter. Zen has very little to do with any organized structure, Buddhism or otherwise - although it was discovered by the Buddhists. The whole essence of Zen is to be a Buddha and not a Buddhist. Buddhism is a certain stream of philosophy - and Zen has nothing whatsover to do with philosophy anymore than the trees, mountains, or rivers have anything to do with philosophy. To see what one sees, and to hear what one hears, is not something philosophical - it is a direct encounter with this present moment. The whole approach of Zen to come to a communion with existence. That is why meditation has never been seen in Zen as something that is only to be practiced sitting - but whether you are sitting, standing, walking, or lying doing - whatever the nature of your activity - keep the stream of meditation moving from moment to moment. And with enough one-pointedness - the breakthrough happens, one can come to a direct experience of the true nature of mind.

Bodhidharma has described Zen in perhaps one of the most eloquent statements :

“A transmission outside of scriptures
Not dependent upon words
Pointing directly to the mind of man
Seeing into one’s nature and becoming a Buddha”.

“When they were first exposed to ideas like “samadhi” they were bound to put their own spin on it”

The spaces which are described in Zen are not different than those described in the yogic traditions.

“Yes, it is possible to disorient the mind and get an “exotic state of consciousness” but that does not mean it is enlightenment”

It is not disorienting the mind either - it is coming to a direct perception of the essential nature of the mind, and the transformation that arises out of direct perception. This is something which has been testified again and again, and all of the masters are in agreement that when the breakthrough happens - it is a kind of resurrection. And like all resurrections, the old has to die and it has to die completely. In Zen, it is called the Great Death.

“And in stories of Zen as if enlightenment is so easy to get you can get in a box of cereal.”

That is not the attitude of Zen. On the contrary, it has been said that unless you are just like a drowning person struggling for air - you have not awakened the intensity that is needed to come to your awakening. This is not a sit and do nothing affair. Even to penetrate through one koan, ordinarily in Zen requires fifteen years of arduous meditation from morning to evening. And neither should you pretend that you understand the stories that you have been reading - they cannot be understood through the intellect. The whole function of koans is not to come to an intellectual understanding of the koan, but to awaken a certain state of consciousness. The koans are fundamentally a kind of mantra which is designed in such a way - that it does not give anything for your logic to grasp onto. No matter how you try to solve it- from this angle, or that angle, it is found to be fruitless. But one continues working on it - because while your intellect may not be able to grasp it, it is accessible to the intuition. So these koans stimulate your intuitive intelligence in the process.

“In Yoga it is not relative - you are either a god or you are not. You either have full mastery over prakriti or you do not.”

Because things, absolutely ordinary as they are, has not managed to bring you to a contentment - now you need to cling to something otherworldly as an escape from things as they are. All of this nonsense about becoming a “God” and having full mastery over nature is just a projection of your own egos lust for power. Since you are infatuated with that language, I will have to speak to you in a terminology which you relate to. To become a “God” is not the intention of Yoga. If you knew anything of the path, one would know that to remain a “God” is actually an obstacle. The realm of being a “God” is not separate from Samsara, and yoga wants to liberate oneself from this whole cycle of birth and death. Even being a “God” is something that is to be transcended. Fundamentally, one is to melt and merge with the source of existence just as a drop of water merges into the ocean. The boundaries of one’s personality are to be cast off sooner or later, because any personality is bound to be a limited entity. That is why again and again, one thing that seems to be common regardless of one’s approach to the expansion of consciousness, is surrender. Even this universe will one day have to collapse back into it’s original nature, the universe as you know it is not a permanent state. Sometimes it is silent, sometimes it explodes, sometimes it contracts back into itself - the cycles are endless. This is what in yoga has been called the mahayugas.

Unless you are willing to die and die completely, all of your interest in the spiritual sciences are nothing more than intelligent ways to strengthen and solidify your sense of ego - which continues manufacturing all of the sources of one’s sufferings.

#47

Surya,

Then I suggest you follow through with what you have stated earlier - to start practicing with more intensity or to perhaps seek a teacher which will satisfy you. Do not waste this valuable time and opportunity. Life flashes by just as a blink of an eye, and I would not take it for granted that one may have several lives ahead, that is just an assumption. Consider this your only opportunity. Miss it, and you have missed it forever.

#48

That shows how ignorant you are of the matter. Zen has very little to do with any organized structure, Buddhism or otherwise - although it was discovered by the Buddhists. The whole essence of Zen is to be a Buddha and not a Buddhist. Buddhism is a certain stream of philosophy - and Zen has nothing whatsover to do with philosophy anymore than the trees, mountains, or rivers have anything to do with philosophy. To see what one sees, and to hear what one hears, is not something philosophical - it is a direct encounter with this present moment. The whole approach of Zen to come to a communion with existence. That is why meditation has never been seen in Zen as something that is only to be practiced sitting - but whether you are sitting, standing, walking, or lying doing - whatever the nature of your activity - keep the stream of meditation moving from moment to moment. And with enough one-pointedness - the breakthrough happens, one can come to a direct experience of the true nature of mind.

This is the ideal, yes. However, just as I cannot vouchsafe for the validity of every yogi who has claimed to be in samadhi, you cannot vouchsafe for every Zen practitioner who has claimed Satori.

Anybody can make a claim to enlightenment, it is whether they can demonstrate it which is important. I cannot test your subjective states, but can I certainly test objective states. You fail in those I am afraid. You have not even passed question one.

The spaces which are described in Zen are not different than those described in the yogic traditions.

Please prove your point by making quotations from Zen scriptures

It is not disorienting the mind either - it is coming to a direct perception of the essential nature of the mind, and the transformation that arises out of direct perception. This is something which has been testified again and again, and all of the masters are in agreement that when the breakthrough happens - it is a kind of resurrection. And like all resurrections, the old has to die and it has to die completely. In Zen, it is called the Great Death.

There is no such thing in reality. There is no breakthrough; expansion of consciousness is a gradual evolutionary process. Just as a maggot does not become a human instantly, a man does not become a god instantly.

You used the analogy of water boiling to explain instant enlightenment. This is a bad analogy which contradicts your point rather than makes it. The water will not boil until it has reached 100 degrees. It does not jump from 0 degrees to 100 in an instant, but gradually reaches 100 degrees in increments.

There is no such thing as instant enlightenment. To use your language, this is your hallucination.

Nothing ever takes place instantly - Rome was not built in a day.

What those Zen guys are experiencing is definitely not enlightenment, but an altered state of mind caused by sudden disorientation. In modern psychology we call this shock, depersonalization. However, as those Zen guys were ignorant of modern psychology - they attributed divinity to it. It is similar to those times when people would hear voices in their head and think god was talking to them - in modern psychology we call this schizophrenia. As for people like you claim to be Buddhas - in modern psychology we call this narcissistic personal disorder.

That is not the attitude of Zen. On the contrary, it has been said that unless you are just like a drowning person struggling for air - you have not awakened the intensity that is needed to come to your awakening. This is not a sit and do nothing affair. Even to penetrate through one koan, ordinarily in Zen requires fifteen years of arduous meditation from morning to evening. And neither should you pretend that you understand the stories that you have been reading - they cannot be understood through the intellect. The whole function of koans is not to come to an intellectual understanding of the koan, but to awaken a certain state of consciousness. The koans are fundamentally a kind of mantra which is designed in such a way - that it does not give anything for your logic to grasp onto. No matter how you try to solve it- from this angle, or that angle, it is found to be fruitless. But one continues working on it - because while your intellect may not be able to grasp it, it is accessible to the intuition. So these koans stimulate your intuitive intelligence in the process.

This is more respectable and I can see how this leads to genuine spiritual development. The problem is when you confuse a minor stop on the way to be the final destination. I think Zen does more harm than good for some people who start to come under the delusion they reached the goal, when they have barely even taken the first step. Such as yourself.

You lack the humility of a yogi.

Because things, absolutely ordinary as they are, has not managed to bring you to a contentment - now you need to cling to something otherworldly as an escape from things as they are. All of this nonsense about becoming a “God” and having full mastery over nature is just a projection of your own egos lust for power. Since you are infatuated with that language, I will have to speak to you in a terminology which you relate to. To become a “God” is not the intention of Yoga. If you knew anything of the path, one would know that to remain a “God” is actually an obstacle. The realm of being a “God” is not separate from Samsara, and yoga wants to liberate oneself from this whole cycle of birth and death. Even being a “God” is something that is to be transcended. Fundamentally, one is to melt and merge with the source of existence just as a drop of water merges into the ocean. The boundaries of one’s personality are to be cast off sooner or later, because any personality is bound to be a limited entity. That is why again and again, one thing that seems to be common regardless of one’s approach to the expansion of consciousness, is surrender. Even this universe will one day have to collapse back into it’s original nature, the universe as you know it is not a permanent state. Sometimes it is silent, sometimes it explodes, sometimes it contracts back into itself - the cycles are endless. This is what in yoga has been called the mahayugas.

First become a god first and then worry about the final liberation :wink: The problem with you dearest is you want to walk before you can crawl, run before you can walk, sprint before you can run.

You are talking about the stage that is beyond the beyond of no limitation, of the absolute, the infinite, the uncaused, the transcendental. Here is a tip - don’t. You can’t hope to understand something that is outside of your comprehension. Keep grounded. You still need to get past stage 1.

I have already told you the stages. Listen to me, because I am your superior when it comes to knowledge :wink:

  1. Mastery over body = conquest over all the involuntary processes of the body
  2. Mastery over prana = conquest over hunger, thrist and sleep
  3. Master over mind = conquest over the subtle body
  4. Mastery over intellect = conquest over matter
  5. Mastery over consciousness = conquest over ego

Amir can you change the temperature of your body at will? Can you bring your heart rate to a desired rate at will? Can you control your metabolism? No? well this is a very basic stage yogis with about 10 years of practice can achieive. Yes? Then lets test you by putting you naked in a sub zero environment and see if you can increase the temperature of your body.
Can you control the prana in your body at will? Can you live without food and water and purely on air or solar rays. Can you move prana at will around your body or extract prana from the akasha? No? Well this is an intermediate stage with about 20 years of practice can achieive. Yes? Then lets test it by depriving you of food and water and see if you can survive.

Can you enter your subtle body at will, remote view, bilocate yourself and control your dreams and manifest whatever you want. No? Well this is an advanced stage of Yoga with about 40 years of practice. Yes? Then lets test it by giving you remote targets and hidden targets to remote view and we can also use magnetic and electric fields to test the presence of your subtle body at the location

Can you control matter with your mind? Telekinesis and pyrokensis, teleport, levitate, manifest objects? No? Well this is a very advanced stage. Yes? Then lets test in controlled experiments and see if you can move objects, teleport, levitate and manifest with your mind.

Are you god? No? Then you are not enlightened. Yes? Then change the orbits of the planets, create a new solar system.

I already know what you are going to say because you are predictable. You are going to this say this is hallucination, myth, attachment to magic and supernatural nonsense. But ironically you are quoting all the time from this tradition. If you don’t believe it, then don’t quote from it.

You pick and choose what is true and what is not simply based on what you like and dislike. And I know why you dislike the above, because it falsifies your claim to enlightenment. You know that you do not even pass stage 1. If I put you in a sub-zero temperature environment naked, you would freeze to death.

Want to test it?

Those of us who are familiar with the science and research on Yoga know exactly what stage somebody is at. You cannot fool us. You can only fool yourself or other fools.

Surya,

Then I suggest you follow through with what you have stated earlier - to start practicing with more intensity or to perhaps seek a teacher which will satisfy you. Do not waste this valuable time and opportunity. Life flashes by just as a blink of an eye, and I would not take it for granted that one may have several lives ahead, that is just an assumption. Consider this your only opportunity. Miss it, and you have missed it forever.

I thank you for your advice, but I think you can benefit from your own advice as well. Find a teacher and keep practicing. Never stop practicing. About 6 hours of meditation a day at a constant for the rest of your life will get you a significant amount of mileage on the spiritual path. But when you spend about 6 hours a day on the internet, one wanders when are you getting time for 6 hours of meditation.

#49

“What those Zen guys are experiencing is definitely not enlightenment, but an altered state of mind caused by sudden disorientation.”

You are ignorant, both as to the content of the experience, it’s effects, as well as even basic intellectual knowledge behind it. Educate yourself on Zen before speaking about the matter, you seem to have a habit of speaking of things of which you do not know, including the very idea of enlightenment which so far is just a hypothesis in your mind - one which you have accepted without question. To state whether something is or is not enlightenment is to assume that you already know it. Drop this arrogance and go deeper into your practice.

#50

"Can you enter your subtle body at will, remote view, bilocate yourself and control your dreams and manifest whatever you want. No? Well this is an advanced stage of Yoga with about 40 years of practice. Yes? Then lets test it by giving you remote targets and hidden targets to remote view and we can also use magnetic and electric fields to test the presence of your subtle body at the location

Can you control matter with your mind? Telekinesis and pyrokensis, teleport, levitate, manifest objects? No? Well this is a very advanced stage. Yes? Then lets test in controlled experiments and see if you can move objects, teleport, levitate and manifest with your mind.

Are you god? No? Then you are not enlightened. Yes? Then change the orbits of the planets, create a new solar system.

I already know what you are going to say because you are predictable. You are going to this say this is hallucination, myth, attachment to magic and supernatural nonsense. But ironically you are quoting all the time from this tradition. If you don’t believe it, then don’t quote from it"

At this pace, not even through millenia upon millenia, will you come even a step closer to that which is closer to you than your own breath. Unless you change your ways, it is safe to conclude that you are a hopeless case.

#51

Amir, you would be wise to take up your own advice first before you start giving it to others:

Drop this arrogance and go deeper into your practice.

Start practicing with more intensity or to perhaps seek a teacher which will satisfy you. Do not waste this valuable time and opportunity.

Unless you are willing to die and die completely, all of your interest in the spiritual sciences are nothing more than intelligent ways to strengthen and solidify your sense of ego

Yes, please do drop the arrogance and just focus on practicing. If on the side you want to teach others get to similar levels as you, then please share as well. Ideally, it is better to first reach a significant level before you start finding time to teach. Your level seems to be little above the ordinary.

Yes, maybe you do need a teacher. In fact I think you are in dire need of one, because somebody needs to bring your ego down a few notches or a hundred before you really do yourself in. You are really badly damaging your spiritual evolution and you are too deluded to notice it.

Yes, you have to be willing to let this “I am enlightened” ego you have contracted die. It is a mental disease and you must let it die if you want to grow further. Otherwise like a plant that does not get watered you will wither away and die.

The reason why this “I am enlightened ego” is so important to you is because it is your clutch that took you out of depression. You cannot let go of it, because you are afraid of falling back into depression. This is why you constantly must chant this mantra to yourself, “I am enlightened, I am enlightened, I am enlightened” in case you do not forget.
This is clearly an ego thing for you, you have no sincere desire to help others. Otherwise you would not go around claiming you are enlightened, claiming you invented meditation and all your knowledge has come from your own insights, and record yourself on youtube and then shamessly advertise yourself everywhere and collect disciples.

Here is what a genuine and sincere person would do. They would let people know of the good benefits they have had and direct them to the same books, article, multimedia and tradition they read from where they got their knowledge and techniques.

All genuine spiritual teachers I have met and have never claimed they invented meditation by themselves or discovered all the knowledge by themselves. Why would they need to? They are sincere and honest people. You are not a sincere and honest person, you want to feel special and unique so you take all the credit youself(plagiarism) then simultaneously you discredit every other traditition out of fear and guilt that you stole everything from them just so you can fool yourself and others you did it all by yourself. What your real intention is Amir is to be worshipped - which is why you call people who listen to you “disciples” You are even deluded enough to think that people posting on this forum are your potential disciples.

Your delusion has reached epic levels. It is both funny and sad at same the time. A tragic comedy to see your soul crash and burn so badly.

#52

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;59315]“What those Zen guys are experiencing is definitely not enlightenment, but an altered state of mind caused by sudden disorientation.”

You are ignorant, both as to the content of the experience, it’s effects, as well as even basic intellectual knowledge behind it. Educate yourself on Zen before speaking about the matter, you seem to have a habit of speaking of things of which you do not know, including the very idea of enlightenment which so far is just a hypothesis in your mind - one which you have accepted without question. To state whether something is or is not enlightenment is to assume that you already know it. Drop this arrogance and go deeper into your practice.[/QUOTE]

Instant enlightenment is as cheap and shoddy as instant coffee.

Enlightenment is the final goal of the evolutionary process. Yogis call it expansion of consciousness: preconscious(insects) subconscious(animals) conscious(humans) superconscious(gods) absolute consciousness(enlightenment)

Nothing happens instantly and those who believe this are fools who are ignorant of the basic law of evolution.

#53

Surya,

"If on the side you want to teach others get to similar levels as you, then please share as well. Ideally, it is better to first reach a significant level before you start finding time to teach. "

I would not be speaking of the matter unless it were out of my own direct experience.

“In fact I think you are in dire need of one, because somebody needs to bring your ego down a few notches or a hundred before you really do yourself in.”

One may just be entangled in the idea of humbleness. A humble ego is far more dangerous than it’s polar opposite, simply because it is so subtle that it is almost impossible to detect. For one who has come to their awakening - they can declare it without any attachment, it is simply a fact. You may like it or dislike it, agree or disagree, it is irrelevant. But the fact is - that you are far more interested in preserving your self image which feels intimidated by me rather than being receptive to the message.

“Yes, you have to be willing to let this “I am enlightened” ego you have contracted die”

I am not identified with the ego - whether it is “enlightened” or “unenlightened”. That is my whole approach to meditation - keep the stream of awareness moving from moment to moment without abiding anywhere. Even the idea of enlightenment fundamentally is another idea that is to be emptied out, one’s true nature is not something that can become enlightened. But I use the word, just temporarily as a useful device.

Seeing the idiotic things you have said which is out of a childish fascination with the otherworldly - most of your interest in yoga is just an intelligent way to continue deceiving yourself. You have accepted far too many things without question, including the very hypothesis of enlightenment itself, as well as things such as “levitation”, which are merely inventions in the same way that the ressurection of Jesus Christ is just a fiction. It may function as a reality for those who have a deep belief in the ressurection of Jesus Christ, and on the basis of belief there is no point of coming to any logic or reason.

“Otherwise you would not go around claiming you are enlightened”

For one as asleep as yourself, such a thing is a problem.

“claiming you invented meditation”

Please indicate where I have said that I have invented meditation. I have said that I discovered meditation through my own exploration. Meditation is not an invention - it is a state of consciousness.

“and all your knowledge has come from your own insights”

Yes, it is out of my own insight and discovery. Only out of a direct seeing into things as they are is there a possibility of any understanding. No amount of borrowed knowledge can function as a substitute. Certainly, there are many forces which have assisted me in my own work, whether it is the work of masters who have come before me, or nature itself. But as far as action is concerned, it is only because I have become involved in the work with a certain commitment that I have come to my present state of being. Nobody else is decisive, the fundamental ingredient is whether an individual has the desire to come to know the Truth. If such a desire is as a fire burning in one’s belly which cannot be extinguished, then perhaps there is a possibility of igniting one’s own eye on the forehead.

“and record yourself on youtube”

Media is one of the most effective methods of transmitting information. I am willing to use whatever means available. Why did Patanjali write the Yoga Sutras ? He was seeking a way to preserve such knowledge. Why did certain sages make an effort to write the scriptures ? Again, it was just seeking a way to preserve their knowledge. If they could have used video or audio recording, they would have done so. Unfortuantely - at their time they did not have anything else except writing.

“then shamessly advertise yourself everywhere”

My approach is not a passive sit and do nothing affair, nor do I keep myself hidden from view. That would be a great disservice to those who have the potential to come to know of the Way. Perhaps this passive attitude may have been not so disasterous in the past - but the fact is that unless man comes to a transformation - extinction seems to be the only option left. And perhaps - extinction in a single moment may be far better than to continue destroying both oneself and everything else that enters into one’s path like a plague. When the tree has become so rotten, it may be better to sever it completely right down from the very roots. But I see that there is another possibility - that if enough individuals are awakened, it is possible to create a totally different kind of human being and a totally different kind of life on this Earth. So no, my approach is not one of vegetating in some unknown field - but tremdendously active. If you can advertise so much nonsense, then I do not see why Truth cannot be advertised. It should be advertised, and every human being should become aware of the possibility of finding that which one has constantly been seeking and not finding.

“you want to feel special and unique so you take all the credit youself”

When absorbed in a bottomless abyss, there is not even a single hook or net to grasp onto. As I have said many times before, I am neither special or unique - I am simply an ordinary person who has come to know oneself, through and through.

“What your real intention is Amir is to be worshipped - which is why you call people who listen to you “disciples” You are even deluded enough to think that people posting on this forum are your potential disciples.”

I am posting on this forum not because I want disciples. At present I am too involved in my own work and would prefer not to give classes, but just for the sake of those who have been asking for my help, I have set some time aside for them. Otherwise, on the contrary - at this point of time to gather more disciples would be an obstacle to my own work which requires tremendous one-pointedness. I am speaking on this forum out of my own compassion, because it is my desire that any individual who is desiring freedom from the causes of their own sufferings should as a birthright be equipped with a knowledge of the method.

#54

Surya,

“Instant enlightenment is as cheap and shoddy as instant coffee”

That is not the attitude of Zen - that by simply doing nothing, that one will come to one’s awakening. Enlightenment, when the moment it arises, is a spontaneous and immediate experience in the moment. All effort is just an attempt to create an inner atmosphere which is prepared for the moment of enlightenment. So yes, enlightenment, in the sense of seeing into one’s true nature, is instantaneous in the sense that in the right season, with the proper soil, with the right amount of water, with the right amount of care, with the proper focus and attention, with all of the necessary ingredients in place - the flower naturally starts blossoming by itself. It is also gradual, in the sense that much effort is needed to create a situation where one has prepared the space. And enlightenment is just the beginning, that is just scratching the surface of the whole process of the expansion of consciousness. The Zen masters have known this very well, and in fact their insights into human nature far surpass many of the yogis. Because in many of the yogic traditions - almost no emphasis has been placed on integration, most have been extremists. To become awakened is one thing, and to integrate one’s awakening is something else entirely. So many masters came to nirvikalpa samadhi, but they remained in that state without returning to the world. Even upon returning to the world, they were incapable of living ordinary lives because they were far too absorbed in their samadhi, their consciousness was not integrated. And that is inevitable in those traditions which have focused on renouncing the world, they were simply escapists. Because they were unable to become involved in the world without becoming entangled, this idiotic prescription of trying to become detached had come into being. Zen is one of the very few approaches which has sought to bring man into a communion which is such that it rejects nothing whatsoever. Even the ordinary world is just as much a part of existence as divine nature, in fact they are not separate. And to cling to one at the expense of the other is simply to try and separate water from ice.

There are some yogic traditions which have focused on this kind of integration where one can be “in the world but not of the world”, but they have always been very rare. Most are concerned with things which are lying far away on the other shore rather than what is in front of their own eyes in this very moment. Even if there is a paradise, whether it is here or there, you are encountering one and the same present moment. But, because your eyes are fixated upon God, heaven, hell, reincarnation, or something other nonsense lying far, far away - one continues hearing and yet remaining absolutely deaf, seeing yet remaining absolutely blind. Though one’s senses are in tact, still one remains in a deep sleep.

#55

[B]Trolls are dishonest. Lack integrity. Are highly interested in hurting peoples feelings. Don’t care about the facts. Won’t argue the points. They bait people into confrontation by posting inflammatory posts . . . [/B]

SD is certainly NOT a troll.

Please research this phenomenon. It is a particular psychological profile.

#56

I would not be speaking of the matter unless it were out of my own direct experience.

You have nothing to show for yourself. This is why one must at least reach stage 1: control over body, before they start teaching.

We cannot test your subjective states. Only a fool goes out there and announces his greatness when he has nothing to show for himsef.

One may just be entangled in the idea of humbleness. A humble ego is far more dangerous than it’s polar opposite, simply because it is so subtle that it is almost impossible to detect. For one who has come to their awakening - they can declare it without any attachment, it is simply a fact. You may like it or dislike it, agree or disagree, it is irrelevant. But the fact is - that you are far more interested in preserving your self image which feels intimidated by me rather than being receptive to the message.

Humility is about saying only as much as you know and can experience and being honest about it. You are not a humble person because you claim

  1. You are a Buddha
  2. Your knowledge is all your own
  3. You discovered meditation by yourself

I am humble because I do not make grandiose claims that I am a Buddha, an ascended master or that all my knowledge I discovered by myself. I am down to earth and share my sources.

In Amir world Amir is king. In our world Amir is a fool. In case you have noticed most of this forum thinks you are a clown.

I am not identified with the ego - whether it is “enlightened” or “unenlightened”. That is my whole approach to meditation - keep the stream of awareness moving from moment to moment without abiding anywhere. Even the idea of enlightenment fundamentally is another idea that is to be emptied out, one’s true nature is not something that can become enlightened. But I use the word, just temporarily as a useful device.

You are very strongly identified with this ego, this is why you announce everywhere you go you are enlightened and compare yourself to other enlightened people. This is why you feel the need to claim you discovered everything by yourself. In reality you are an insecure young man who constantly needs to remind himself he is special and tell everybody else they are not. Pathetic.

Like I said it is a tragic and comic at the same time.

If you were honest about helping others you would feel no need to declare yourself enlightened. You could have helped people anyway and would have openly shared your sources. Indeed so far every genuine spiritual teacher I have met has acted as such.

Seeing the idiotic things you have said which is out of a childish fascination with the otherworldly - most of your interest in yoga is just an intelligent way to continue deceiving yourself. You have accepted far too many things without question, including the very hypothesis of enlightenment itself, as well as things such as “levitation”, which are merely inventions in the same way that the ressurection of Jesus Christ is just a fiction. It may function as a reality for those who have a deep belief in the ressurection of Jesus Christ, and on the basis of belief there is no point of coming to any logic or reason.

While you have nothing to show for your subjective claims, I can actually produce evidence and facts for reincarnation, astral body, telekinesis, yogis with control over their involtunary body processes, pranic processes.

It is your subjective statements vs my objective statements.

Please indicate where I have said that I have invented meditation. I have said that I discovered meditation through my own exploration. Meditation is not an invention - it is a state of consciousness.

Nope, meditation is a technique one uses to explore states of consciousness. You did not discover meditation. Stop lying. You learned it from books, articles, multimedia and/or teachers just like everybody else has. Just like Buddha did from his teacher.
In Amir’s world Amir is king. In our world Amir is a fool.

Yes, it is out of my own insight and discovery. Only out of a direct seeing into things as they are is there a possibility of any understanding. No amount of borrowed knowledge can function as a substitute. Certainly, there are many forces which have assisted me in my own work, whether it is the work of masters who have come before me, or nature itself. But as far as action is concerned, it is only because I have become involved in the work with a certain commitment that I have come to my present state of being. Nobody else is decisive, the fundamental ingredient is whether an individual has the desire to come to know the Truth. If such a desire is as a fire burning in one’s belly which cannot be extinguished, then perhaps there is a possibility of igniting one’s own eye on the forehead.

No, you got your knowledge from books. You read A LOT. We know you have read a lot becaue you are always quoting, citing stories, ancedotes, teachings, histories, philosophies from everything. Nothing you say is original. In fact the vast majority of things you say is kindergarten stuff to a lot of people on this forum.

Media is one of the most effective methods of transmitting information. I am willing to use whatever means available. Why did Patanjali write the Yoga Sutras ? He was seeking a way to preserve such knowledge. Why did certain sages make an effort to write the scriptures ? Again, it was just seeking a way to preserve their knowledge. If they could have used video or audio recording, they would have done so. Unfortuantely - at their time they did not have anything else except writing.

We don’t need your youtube videos giving regurgiated information you have read in your pretentious style. There is already a lot of material out there from the original scriptures such as the Yoga sutras to new-age gurus like Ekhart tolle and his classic “Power of Now” Go a search on youtube for meditation, spirituality or yoga. There is tons of on stuff there.
Sorry to be harsh - but you’re not needed.

My approach is not a passive sit and do nothing affair, nor do I keep myself hidden from view. That would be a great disservice to those who have the potential to come to know of the Way.

Haha
Amir even if you were to disappear of this planet the next moment nobody would notice you are gone. I find the way you boaster yourself up and praise yourself comic and tragic.
You’re not as good as you think you are. I have both read and seen better. Even superficial new-age stuff like Tolle’s “Power of Now” looks like a reservoir of wisdom before the tripe you write here.

When absorbed in a bottomless abyss, there is not even a single hook or net to grasp onto. As I have said many times before, I am neither special or unique - I am simply an ordinary person who has come to know oneself, through and through.

Translation: You are not special or unique, you are simply an ordinary person who has attained his Buddha nature, a feat so rare that yogis meditating all their life have not done it.
You do not claim to be ordinary. Ordinary people do not have and look for “disciples” :wink:

I am posting on this forum not because I want disciples. At present I am too involved in my own work and would prefer not to give classes, but just for the sake of those who have been asking for my help, I have set some time aside for them. Otherwise, on the contrary - at this point of time to gather more disciples would be an obstacle to my own work which requires tremendous one-pointedness. I am speaking on this forum out of my own compassion, because it is my desire that any individual who is desiring freedom from the causes of their own sufferings should as a birthright be equipped with a knowledge of the method.

Is there anybody on this forum, even a single person who would become your disciple? Most people think you are a clown here Amir. You pretty much killed your credibility here - even your previous defenders have abandoned you. I have been told in confidence.

#57

The Master/disciple relationship is the relationship between a caterpillar and a butterfly, a friendship between a caterpillar and a butterfly. the butterfly cannot prove that the caterpillar can become a butterfly; there is no logical way. But the butterfly can provoke a longing in the caterpillar ? that is possible. The Master helps you to reach your own experience. He does not give you the Vedas, the Koran, the Bible; he throws you to yourself. He makes you aware of your inner sources. He makes you aware of your own juice, of your own godliness. He liberates you from the scriptures. He liberates you from the interpretations of others. He liberates you from all belief. He liberates you from all speculation, from all guesswork. He liberates you from philosophy and from religion and from theology. He liberates you, in short, from the world of words ? because the word is the problem. - OSHO

#58

[QUOTE=bjoy;59341]The Master/disciple relationship is the relationship between a caterpillar and a butterfly, a friendship between a caterpillar and a butterfly. the butterfly cannot prove that the caterpillar can become a butterfly; there is no logical way. But the butterfly can provoke a longing in the caterpillar ? that is possible. The Master helps you to reach your own experience. He does not give you the Vedas, the Koran, the Bible; he throws you to yourself. He makes you aware of your inner sources. He makes you aware of your own juice, of your own godliness. He liberates you from the scriptures. He liberates you from the interpretations of others. He liberates you from all belief. He liberates you from all speculation, from all guesswork. He liberates you from philosophy and from religion and from theology. He liberates you, in short, from the world of words ? because the word is the problem. - OSHO[/QUOTE]

I do not believe OSHO to be of saintly character. My opinion is that he is a thief, a fraud, a phony, a charlatan, and a criminal of the highest order.

#59

[QUOTE=The Scales;59342]I do not believe OSHO to be of saintly character. My opinion is that he is a thief, a fraud, a phony, a charlatan, and a criminal of the highest order.[/QUOTE]

Just a thought of a criminal.

#60

[QUOTE=bjoy;59343]Just a thought of a criminal.[/QUOTE]

Isn’t that what I just said?