Kind of along the lines of citymonks thread of dealing with difficult people. So if we take the difficult person she is referring to as an example, whos fault is it that the person is that way? If this person grew up around parents that were cursing and negative all the time would you expect citymonks best friend to be any different? Can you blame the parents, or did her parents have parents and those parents have parents, etc… that raised their children this way. How much do you feel it is the individuals responsibility and how much do you feel rests on the shoulders of the one before?
best to you
Brother Neil
The only person you can blame for your intolerance is you. It is often said that people are mirrors to yourself and what you dislike in someone is something you dislike about yourself. (and vice versa) if someone is a “difficult person” due to thier circumstances remember that those circumstances are thier karma, so it is up to them to deal with that themselves. that doesn’t mean that we can’t help them and maybe they need telling that thier actions are unfavorable. (or that they are being really annoying)
I grew up with much negativity and my reaction was to rebel I didn’t want to end up like that myself.
[I]People are always blaming their circumstances for what they are. I don’t believe in circumstances. The people who get on in this world are the people who get up and look for the circumstances they want, and, if they can’t find them, make them. (George Bernard Shaw)[/I]
There not mutually exclusive. The environment in which you were brought up, plays a unmistakable role in sculpting your person. But you can’t blame everything you do on that.
I was an alcoholic and drug addict for 15 years. I was brought up in a violent environment, and exposed to alcohol abusive family members. I started drinking and abusing drugs in my late teens, and it continued just into my thirties. I believe my upbringing played a role, and so did my personality. I could only become clean when I realised I was responsible for my own actions, which allowed me to stop blaming the outside world for my issues.
Not everybody who has an unfortunate upbringing turns out unfortunate themselves. Some people go through hell and back and turn out to be more successful than people who have had good upbringings.
You cannot blame your life on circumstances. Your life is as it is because of your own actions. If you want change, then you change your actions. Only you are responsible for your life nobody else.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;33020]Your life is as it is because of your own actions.[/QUOTE]
Ouch! I hope people starving in a third world country don’t hear you say that.
[QUOTE=YogiAdam;33023]Ouch! I hope people starving in a third world country don’t hear you say that.[/QUOTE]
People in abject poverty have been able to attain more success than people in well of conditons. I know of several succesful people who came from poverty.
At best you can say your circumstances influence your life, but they do not determine your life. How you respond to your circumstances and make the best of them is what determines your life.
Bruce Lee had a physical disability in his legs and he wanted to become a martial artist. He was told by everybody he would never be able to become a martial artist. Not only did he become a martial artist, he became one of the worlds best in the history of martial arts.
This is simply a testimony to the power of human will. We have been able to go to the moon and back. If we put our soul into it we can accomplish anything that is possible.
YogiAdam, if you think of it, if we believe in justice (and I think you are), and we also accept the existence of higher powers (where i think I have lost you) than we must believe in some form of compensation, otherwise there is no justice, but blind natural powers acting in chaos.
Now, it’s fine and easy to be a materialist atheist (I am no sure you are one, but just talking freely) while you have a car to drive a home to live in, a workplace to earn (or maybe benefiting of a provider), a computer to talk about yoga on the internet while the air conditioning is working.
While we benefit of the effects of great spiritual realisations, achievements of our technological civilization and not just technological, as what are our laws, societies, and human right oragnizations if no great achievements too, we forgot a lot of basic things like how is to hunger, suffer, be abused, to be fragile, and mortal.
This did not change human condition. It only took our perception of it. And until one is ready or willing to face the truth about the human condition, one will no get any real answers as one will not ask any real questions. Only from the realization of human condition will the desire for truth be born. No intellecualism will comfort you on the brink of peril. Now, exactly because of this nature of thing, religious peple or spiritual journeyers are percieved as frightening, as they talk about inappropriate, taboo themes, and the remember us what we hate to rememeber.
Why do I say these ? because I needed a preparation for what I am about to say. When facing the human condition, something will be born in the human soul, a realization, a thirst for hope, and a strong sense of being as opposed to the decaying world of the senses. And this thirst, hope, and trust in our very existence is what is the basis for any spiritual endeavour. No intellectualisms suffice here. Our very sense for justice, morality aprreciation of good, and beauty are coming not from the world of the senses. They are coming from somewhere we don’t know, ye we see them exist in our inner experince. This is where spiritual discipleship starts.
Now, I said, if there is to be justice, compensation is needed. We see, that during a lifetime, we often fail to see justice brought to it’s end. Specially if we compare lives. And the merit of all ancient religions is the idea o reincarnation. Hinduism is not alone with this, egyptians had this, ancient greeks had this, even early church fahers talked about this. If we accept the posibility of reincarnation, than compensations can be imagined.
So far we have only talked theoretically, and I think it is clear to ayone that reincarnation gives a plausible explanation regarding the apparent lack of divine justice in our lives. Exoteric christianity is only different that it allows only post mortem compensations, and thus makes God appear of whimsical character, creating blind newborns, siamese twins, or sharing His love based on personal preferences. So, from a purely intellectual analysis, reincarnation is the most logical. So the real question is not of what religions teach about higher worlds, or planes of existence is true in detail, but it is: do these worlds, planes exist at all ? And of course for a mind what is not concerned with human condition, the more convenient answer is to rule out everything it can’t expereince. And it would be indeed silly and highly illogical from someone who can’t fathom the existence of anything but the sensorial world, to accept something else as true based on someone else’s authority.
Such persons need to work on their world knowledge, as both inner and oute expereinces, and in time, through life, some gates will open for them too. Maybe. It migh not happen in this life (would be a shame), but than it will ceirtanly happen in another. 
And because the existence of next life is theoretical, there is no no need to worry about it.
It is not at all about fault and blame. Those two things, in the yoga context, do not enter the picture.
[QUOTE=InnerAthlete;33203]It is not at all about fault and blame. Those two things, in the yoga context, do not enter the picture.[/QUOTE]
Hey Gordon
I would be interested if you would expand on what you mean by that.
Thanks
Brother Neil
I don’t believe expanding on this one makes it more digestible. Blame and fault in yoga are pointless folly. Evolving through the practice can only come through the work of taking full responsibility for one’s living. Otherwise the work is placed on someone else rather than one’s self.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;33027]People in abject poverty have been able to attain more success than people in well of conditons. I know of several succesful people who came from poverty.[/QUOTE]
You take merely a small sample of society to reference your opinions.
Unfortunately Surya Deva, life is not that black and white.
There are millions of people suffering for many different reasons. For example, some suffer from depression, some have no food, some are exploited, some are addicts etc etc etc…They are victims of crime, society, goverments, slavery, culture, illness, family etc. There are so many reasons why people suffer and why they are stuck in that suffering. So to simply say because one guy made a success out of his shit situation everyone else can too, is in my opinion judgemental and ignorant.
One should remember to feel compassion and humility for all beings, we are not in a position to judge or think we have all the right solutions for those very far removed from our world or understanding. You are fortunate that you have the strength to rise above your life’s obstacles and challenges, that does not mean everyone is as strong or free as you might be.
Yes, Brother Neil, I do believe people are a product of their past and present, but blaming it will not set you free from it. Anger is very closely related to blame, perhaps if we can let go of the anger we will let go of the blame too.
I never said I do not feel compassion for the plight of those who are less fortunate. However, I definitely believe in the power of human will and intelligence, and I definitely believe the less fortunate can rise over their circumstances if they applied it.
As a yogi I do not believe in victim mentality. The victim mentality, as Stephen Covey rightly points out in his book, “7 Habits of Highly effective people” is a huge drawback on our potential and such people never succeed until they break out of such mindsets. One example Covey gives in his book is of a highly succesful holocaust survivor, who was admired not only by his inmates but even the Nazis liked him, because despite the fact that the material degradation infliced on him was the same as the others, he chose to respond to it in a completely different way than the others. He realised that while he had no power of his material condition at the time, he at least had power over his mental condition and he chose to be joyous and upbeat.
You should not think of it as “a small sample of society” the fact is these people are constituted in a similar way as you are. We have pretty much the same biology, the same mental structures and the same spiritual potential. The difference between this “small sample of society” and the larger society is the small sample of society have learned to use their higher potentials.
Yep, sorry it is an hard truth to swallow. The succesfull people get to where they are based on their sadhana. This option is open to everybody.
Quote from Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa “[I]Forget all you have learned, become a child again. Then it will be easy to realize that wisdom[/I]”.
I choose to not swallow [U]your[/U] truth.
In a way Ramakrishna is supporting what I am saying 
Go back to basics and approach the problem with a clearer vision and new wisdom.
Hummm I don’t see that at all.
But anyway, if you feel happy that you are right then great
[QUOTE=omamana;33300]Hummm I don’t see that at all.
But anyway, if you feel happy that you are right then great :D[/QUOTE]
This Surya dude is one of the biggest ‘right fighters’ on the planet. He’s always right, your always wrong, and he will not rest until everyone agrees. I’m not kidding.
Yes, I do get the same impression, and it is a shame because a forum can be a wonderful place to learn from other people, but you have to be open to it and I guess not all of us are.
Perhaps his motives are different to ours and that is his prerogative.
Seeing as you guys are talking about me in the third person, I thought I would be rude enough to butt in
You are right about me if I am convinced I am right I will stop at nothing but to completely and utterly demonstrate though evidence, through argument that I am right. I told you nobody can beat me in logic. I am never convinced about something which is not thoroughly supported by evidence.
In this case I am supported by evidence in the point that I am making that circumstances are only influences and not determinants and we have the power to respond to our circumstances the best we can. There are countless people who have had unfortunate circumstances, but rather than behaving like victims, they empowered themselves and chose another response.
Omamana I think you find this so hard to accept because you believe we humans are sinners and do not believe in our great potentials.
While I agree that some people can overcome certain things in their life (i.e. dysfunctional family) I do not agree that everyone has the same opportunity. What about someone suffering from depression, abuse, PTSD, other mental illnesses? Not everyone’s brains are wired the same. We each have a unique chemistry and personality. While this is the land of opportunity it is not for all. If you grow up in poverty and never venture outside your bubble, how would you know what opportunities await you? Not everyone has the strength to overcome obstacles. Does that make them less human? No. These people are not victims because they chose to be victims. Society has labeled them that. It is not about being a victim. It’s about compassion and kindness toward all.
The TRUTH is, there is suffering. And when there is suffering we need to show compassion without trying to understand the TRUTH behind the suffering.
What you think bares no relavance to me, as I don’t respect your opinions or your ‘logic’.
You have beat us all Surya, well done.