Trouble is, if we were to force the issue in practice that Hinduism and Buddhism are the right way, we know it would cause a war so we are relying on the sensibilities of people around the world to to see, eventually, that there exists a belief system that encompasses principles that will let us all sleep in peace. Then, all we will have to deal with are the people with propensities towards anti social behaviors that have nothing to do with a religions…so I would still have to keep my door locked should there ever be a Hindu Buddhist world.
[QUOTE=lotusgirl;38675]Surya,
Why do you say the things you do? Why would you call me a hypocrite? And say that it is clear for all to see. You do not know me and cannot make that judgement. I have NEVER and I repeat NEVER criticized HINDUISM. I have, and I repeat, have repeatedly expressed my appreciation for the many things Hinduism brought us. Did I point out the Caste system and how Indian women are treated? Yes I did and rightly so. I would never criticize Hinduism in revenge. How absurd.[/QUOTE]
Lotusgirl ji,
I did not call you a hypocrite, I said that it is clear you have been hypocritical. I do not have to know you personally to judge that what you write is hypocritical. It is clear for anyone who has been following this debate in “Abrahamic vs Hinduism religion” and “Is Yoga Hinduism” that you have been very critical of Hinduism and very supportive of Abrahamic religions. You expressed great horror at the caste system and how women were treated in modern India, but when it came to talking about inquisitions, crusades and genocide in Christianity and the bible you kept denying it was there, saying it was an “isolated case” and the death and destruction in the OT you claimed to be taken out of context.
About two Indian members joined the forum, “Lostintheway” and “Whatisname” one who was Sikh and the other who was Dalit, who engaged in relentless attacks on Hinduism and me personally, and you kept on endorsing them and tacitly supporting them. Telling them their contributions was “excellent” and “enlightening” when in reality they were malicious, but because they were anti-Hindu you liked it.
So it is clear for anyone to see where your loyalties lie. I think you should be honest you are fighting on the side of the Abrahamic religions.
I encouraged lostontheway and whatsinaname because they brought a different perspective to the debate. One that was not shared by you. It was a part of India that we need to see and understand. I was not criticizing Hinduism. But SD, you will see what you want with me anyway, so I shouldn’t argue.
It makes not difference whether you called me a hypocrite or said I’ve been hypocritical…it is the same thing.
All I’ve tried to do is to show that there are always 2 sides to look at. I’ve acknowledged some of the atrocities of the christian religion and also the caste system in India. See, both sides. What I wanted you to do is stop continuing to bash the Abrahamic religions and to engage in meaningful discussion instead of preaching.
The above mentioned Indians were trying to get you to see the bigger picture in India. AND I DID NOT LIKE WHAT THEY SAID BECAUSE THEY WERE ANTI HINDU. STOP TRYING TO PAINT ME AS A BIGOT. THIS IS VERY UNFAIR AND BASELESS.
Thank you.
Abrahamic beliefs have not played a minor role by any means, this is clear to anybody who can appreciate history to see. First they systematically wiped out the Pagan cultures in Europe and the Middle East. Then through colonialism eradicated the pagan cultures in Asia, Australia and Americas. Not only this, but they have constantly warring against each other as well(Christianity vs Islam vs Judaism) and shedding each others blood. Not to mention witch burnings where as many as 6 million women were burnt at the stake. This is approx 2000 years of constant bloodshed and oppression and shaped the history of the world as you claim it is minor? The Abrahamic religions have the blood of hundreds of millions of people of this planet on their hands. No condemenation with words is enough.
In modern times in the last 100 years Abrahamic religions continue to rule planet indirectly through the capitalist ideology they have spawned, which is simply the secular articulation of Abrahamic structures of power where an elite few oppress and exploit the many. The Abrahamic beliefs which support the tyrannical rule of god and priests is reproduced in the tyannical rule of the planet by rich capitalists, and the Abrahmic belief that we are all sinners is reproduced by capitalism in that we are inherently greedy.
In the future when humankind looks back at history they will identify Abrahamic religion and ideology as the single biggest cause for holding humanity back in dark ages of oppression, death and destruction. The evolution of this planet now depends on the eradication of Abrahamic religion and ideology.
Here we go again with your constant mantra and drumbeat. You’ve already stated your above points many times SD. Take a deep breath.
No response either on my post #63
SD, I have feeling that you want to paint a picture that people are by nature very kind hearted and lacking any violence and only these poisonous abrahamic beliefs twisted them into violent beasts. If yes, this image has little to do with reality. Violence is part of our nature and we are only using excuses and reasons using religion or other ideas (like welfare of your countrymen or loyalty to the ruler). Wars and violence existed under all political systems and all religions. The guilt lies in our nature, not in belief systems.
There is a difference in calling you hypocritcal and saying you are being hypocritical. I can say that x is doing y, where x and y are two separate entities. This is not equivalent to the statement x is y.
Anyway as much as you claim partiality here I am afraid your actions have already testified against you. Actions speak louder than words. You have passionately defended Abrahamic religions from the very outset, and not once did you accept the Abrahamic religions are responsible. I once asked you directly whether you accept the ordainance of rape, murder and genocide in the bible, and you claimed they were moral fables teaching lessons for being good.
On the other hand, you did not hestitate at all in condemning caste problems and women issues in modern India, claiming they were part of Hinduism in the same way Christian atrocities were part of Christianity. Despite being shown several times these were modern problems in Indian society had nothing to do with Hinduism. However, Christian atrocities on the other hand were directly linked to Christianity.
You should openly admit that you are taking sides and stop pretending to be impartial, as your actions have testified against you already.
Pawel,
Whenever people make this argument that all religions and all cultures have a history of violence and war I simply ask them. Please point out the Hindu and Buddhist crusades, inquisitions, witch burnings and genocides. Then they go silent.
The truth is clear no other culture on this planet can even compare in magnitude to the atrocities, death, destruction and inhumanity of Western civilisation helmed by Abrahamic religion and ideology. Any objective person can see dharmic religions of Eastern civilisation enjoy a history that is infinitely more civilised and humane.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;38727]Pawel,
Whenever people make this argument that all religions and all cultures have a history of violence and war I simply ask them. Please point out the Hindu and Buddhist crusades, inquisitions, witch burnings and genocides. Then they go silent.
The truth is clear no other culture on this planet can even compare in magnitude to the atrocities, death, destruction and inhumanity of Western civilisation helmed by Abrahamic religion and ideology. Any objective person can see dharmic religions of Eastern civilisation enjoy a history that is infinitely more civilised and humane.[/QUOTE]
I don't know too well history in Asia so can't comment on that. But I can point one simple thing from European history: Roman Empire. It wasn't build on Abrahamic culture and religion at all. And trust me, it wasn't driven by timidness. Those who opposed roman legions and power were exterminated. Also Aztecs came to my mind with their rituals of killing prisoners by thousands.
I just found on wikipedia interesting article:
There is only one continent missing from the list: Antarctica...
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;38727]Pawel,
The truth is clear no other culture on this planet can even compare in magnitude to the atrocities, death, destruction and inhumanity of Western civilisation helmed by Abrahamic religion and ideology. Any objective person can see dharmic religions of Eastern civilisation enjoy a history that is infinitely more civilised and humane.[/QUOTE]
Will America become Hindu about the same time it eliminates its debt, balances its budget and the entire population of the United States learns Farsi…so I’m voting no, it will not become Hindu anytime soon
Just thing Mongol and then say that again. And I know they were not Hindu or Buddhist but they sure as heck were not western.
Also the history of Tibet, pre-Buddhism is pretty damn violent and China has more than once committed its share of atrocities throughout its long history. And there are a lot of atrocities committed in the Middle East as well. And let?s not forget Japan. I am not excusing the west or denying that it is responsible for more than its share but if you honestly believe the East is exempt you are more than a little deluded
Sorry to burst your bubble there but, sadly, the west is not the only region that has committed atrocities
As to the original questions
Will America become Hindu? Sure it will at just about the same time it eliminates its debt, balances its budget and the entire population of the United States learns Farsi…so, again, I’m voting no, it will not become Hindu anytime soon
[QUOTE=Pawel;38730]I don't know too well history in Asia so can't comment on that. But I can point one simple thing from European history: Roman Empire. It wasn't build on Abrahamic culture and religion at all. And trust me, it wasn't driven by timidness. Those who opposed roman legions and power were exterminated. Also Aztecs came to my mind with their rituals of killing prisoners by thousands.
I just found on wikipedia interesting article:
There is only one continent missing from the list: Antarctica...[/QUOTE]
Yes, it can be said that all cultures on the planet have had evil practices, there is no spotless culture on the planet. However, the magnitude of evil is not the same as it is Abrahamic culture, where evil was institutionalized.
Roman culture was closely affliated to the Abrahamic culture. The linages of Roman emperors can be traced to to Egyptian pharoahs, which in turn can be traced to Sumeria. Many of the roman gods and goddesses are of Sumerian origin. The bible deals with the history of that region. Western civilisation generally sees itself as starting in Sumeria.
In any case it seems in ancient India most of the cultures outside of India were quite savage. The indian texts mention how these tribes originally started out in India and were exiled from the Aryan lands because of their savage ways. They then went onto find the other civilisations in the world, the main one being Sumeria.
Also the history of Tibet, pre-Buddhism is pretty damn violent and China has more than once committed its share of atrocities throughout its long history. And there are a lot of atrocities committed in the Middle East as well. And let?s not forget Japan. I am not excusing the west or denying that it is responsible for more than its share but if you honestly believe the East is exempt you are more than a little deluded
Sorry to burst your bubble there but, sadly, the west is not the only region that has committed atrocities
Notice how you say Pre-buddhism. In other words until parts of the world were not civilised by Hinduism or Buddhism, they were savage.
Anyway, I never denied that evil did not exist in Eastern civilisation, but when compared to Western civilisation it seems infinitely more civilised, and this is mainly due to Hinduism and Buddhism.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;38742]Notice how you say Pre-buddhism. In other words until parts of the world were not civilised by Hinduism or Buddhism, they were savage.
Anyway, I never denied that evil did not exist in Eastern civilisation, but when compared to Western civilisation it seems infinitely more civilised, and this is mainly due to Hinduism and Buddhism.[/QUOTE]
Surya you are a trip.
You said this
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;38727]The truth is clear no other culture on this planet can even compare in magnitude to the atrocities, death, destruction and inhumanity of Western civilisation helmed by Abrahamic religion and ideology. [/QUOTE]
and I talked about
[QUOTE=Yulaw;38731]
Just thing Mongol and then say that again. And I know they were not Hindu or Buddhist but they sure as heck were not western.
Also the history of Tibet, pre-Buddhism is pretty damn violent and China has more than once committed its share of atrocities throughout its long history. And there are a lot of atrocities committed in the Middle East as well. And let?s not forget Japan. I am not excusing the west or denying that it is responsible for more than its share but if you honestly believe the East is exempt you are more than a little deluded
Sorry to burst your bubble there but, sadly, the west is not the only region that has committed atrocities[/QUOTE]
Let me list them again; Mongol, Tibet, Japan, China, Middle East? and you picked you Pre-Buddhist Tibet? you are funny.
And to clarify I am not trying to say anything about Religion being better or worse I am responding to the statement you made
The truth is clear no other culture on this planet can even compare in magnitude to the atrocities, death, destruction and inhumanity of Western civilisation
All you need to do is get a legitimate book about world history to see that the East and Middle East have committed its share of atrocities throughout history. Just look to what Japanese did during World War 2 in China and you will see more than anyone wants to as far as atrocities go. Look to what the Mongols did and you will see more. Look to what happened in China during the cultural revolution and there are more and as far a China goes you can see atrocities all the way back to the Qin Dynasty and before.
I am not saying that the West has not committed atrocities because it most certainly has but it does not have a corner on the market. And here is another shock for you many had absolutely nothing to do with religion. You see the west compartmentalizes things and often religion has nothing to do with it
To sum up I am not defending the west of Abrahamic religions, I am just not letting the east off the hook because you believe it should be when in fact it is far from the truth.
Oh and as a note?. As far as Tibet goes? Hinduism had little to do with it?. However Buddhism had a lot to do with it and to be honest I am hard pressed to think of a more civilized group as a whole than Buddhists? and even there, if you look hard enough… you will find the occasional atrocity.
OK seriously, emotion, religion and just plain silliness aside let’s look at the numbers
India is not even 100% Hindu, although it does have the highest percentage of Hindus of any country on the planet with Nepal in second place but based on World population that is not really all that many it works out to 7% - 19% of the world population.
India is 89.5% Hindu
Nepal 80.6 % Hindu
And how long has Hinduism been in India? And how does that compare to the 90 years left in the century
There are approximately 1.9 billion to 2.1 billion Christians in the world with the next largest religion on the planet being Islam with 1.3 Billion to 1.57 billion practitioners and in 3rd we have Hinduism with 1.2 billion to 1.5 billion practitioners and 4th we have Buddhism with 500 Million to 1 Billion members.
Now let’s look at the averages
Christianity = 2 Billion
Islam = 1.435 Billion
Hindu = 1.35 Billion
Buddhism = 0.75 Billion
That puts Hinduism behind Christianity by 0.65 Billion and behind Islam by .085 billion
All together these 4 religions makes up about 68% to 90.73% of the world population or if we go with the average 79.365%
Leaving 32% to 9.27% to other religions, or on average 20.635%
Statistically for 2000 - 2005
Hinduism grew only 1.57% which was behind the growth of Islam, Bahai Faith, Sikhism and just ahead of Christianity which grew 1.32%
America is currently about 1% Hindu so you only have 99% to go and at a growth rate of 1.6% world wide… with Christianity growing at approximately 1.3% (leaving only a .3% difference)….now to the possibility of the US becoming Hindu by the end of the century all I have to say is…. good luck with that… but I would not hold my breath
[QUOTE=Yulaw;38753]OK seriously, emotion, religion and just plain silliness aside let’s look at the numbers
India is not even 100% Hindu, although it does have the highest percentage of Hindus of any country on the planet with Nepal in second place but based on World population that is not really all that many it works out to 7% - 19% of the world population.
India is 89.5% Hindu
Nepal 80.6 % Hindu
And how long has Hinduism been in India? And how does that compare to the 90 years left in the century
There are approximately 1.9 billion to 2.1 billion Christians in the world with the next largest religion on the planet being Islam with 1.3 Billion to 1.57 billion practitioners and in 3rd we have Hinduism with 1.2 billion to 1.5 billion practitioners and 4th we have Buddhism with 500 Million to 1 Billion members.
Now let’s look at the averages
Christianity = 2 Billion
Islam = 1.435 Billion
Hindu = 1.35 Billion
Buddhism = 0.75 Billion
That puts Hinduism behind Christianity by 0.65 Billion and behind Islam by .085 billion
All together these 4 religions makes up about 68% to 90.73% of the world population or if we go with the average 79.365%
Leaving 32% to 9.27% to other religions, or on average 20.635%
Statistically for 2000 - 2005
Hinduism grew only 1.57% which was behind the growth of Islam, Bahai Faith, Sikhism and just ahead of Christianity which grew 1.32%
America is currently about 1% Hindu so you only have 99% to go and at a growth rate of 1.6% world wide… with Christianity growing at approximately 1.3% (leaving only a .3% difference)….now to the possibility of the US becoming Hindu by the end of the century all I have to say is…. good luck with that… but I would not hold my breath[/QUOTE]
Yulaw…The reason why the figures appear as they do is because eg Christianity went across the world converting the ‘savages’ to it!!!
Pushing their faith wherever they went, manipulating, occupying, forcing, shaming, and patronising as they went their do- gooder way. That is why they hold such numbers. and the others high on the list, in turn. in their way.
Seeing as the settlers in America were mainly Irish, Scottish, German and Dutch explains their obvious Christian stronghold…and what happened to the American Indians? we all know that story don’t we?
The peace loving gentle hinduBuddhists have not done this, they haven’t bullied or manipulated their way across the world.
[QUOTE=kareng;38755]Yulaw…The reason why the figures appear as they do is because eg Christianity went across the world converting the ‘savages’ to it!!!
Pushing their faith wherever they went, manipulating, occupying, forcing, shaming, and patronising as they went their do- gooder way. That is why they hold such numbers. and the others high on the list, in turn. in their way.
Seeing as the settlers in America were mainly Irish, Scottish, German and Dutch explains their obvious Christian stronghold…and what happened to the American Indians? we all know that story don’t we?
The peace loving gentle hinduBuddhists have not done this, they haven’t bullied or manipulated their way across the world.[/QUOTE]
Not all of them anyway.
However, Yulaw is not addressing why the numbers are what they are, he is answering the question.
Alix I am following the posts …?
Will America become Hindu by the end of the century? Is the question is it not? Did I misread?
Yulaw’s post seems fairly concise in terms of numerical data.
I do sometimes misread, have I mistaken the thread? If so, OOPS! Sorry! I worked a night shift last night and I’m not totally with it today.
I am confused now maybe its me …ha