Yoga and Christianity

How can yoga be ‘satanic’ if it leads Christians towards lives of moderation?

I am fed up hearing about this bullying by Christian fundamentalists. If they were confident they would would not even discourage adherents from exploring other paths knowing that their is best and that exploration would prove that.

However, hatha yoga and ayurveda is not even another path, it is 100% a science.

I am going through this with a friend of mine who is a diagnosed schizophrenic and for whom the Church community has been a real help. She is, however, in misery with nicotine addiction, psychiatric drugs, and caffeine addiction, but yoga and ayurveda are ‘satanic’.

What? :eek:

When I challenged this I was ‘mocking God’.

Ok then Satan wants you to live a life of peace and your Christian God will become angry if you do this.

Yoga and ayurveda are not in the bible therefore they go against the Christian religion.

What? :mad:

While indignation resulting from witnessing hypocrisy is understandable, usually a categoric rejection leaves us without a deeper comprehension of what really happens.
It is natural that we feel aversion towards things we find unacceptable, yet true comprehension follows the acknowledgment, acception of existance of such things using objective attention. The first step is asessing the unacceptable status of the phenomenon, what we usually reject, or fight; but to comprehend what happens we need to put ourself into the position of the other, while our feelings and opinions are totally silent. This way, we become able to realize the other persons “hell”, the real motives or conditionings the other one might be unconscious of, too, and through this deeper undertstanding, we become able to act “skillfully” to use a buddhist term. As yogis or spiritual practicants, our first duty is o arrive to a correct understanding of our lives and it’s happenings, but this is impossible without understanding others, as we are all part of a bigger scheme. Without really comprehending what goes on, how can we ever do the right thing ? And usually, what goes on, is unclear to us. That’s why we all err, in spite of our best intentions. We are capable of terrible deeds out of good will. All of us.

Generalizing is never useful. We need to realize that if we label groups of people, we are separating what is really, one. We are humans. Even fundamentalist christians or moslims, aso, they are human, and are like us. Their errors are our errors. Their fear of the unknown is the same what makes others atheists, materialists, hedonists, and so one. The same fear of losing the essential human right to think and beleive what we are best able, works in all of us, both in the fundamentalist and you, my friend.

The evil people are fearful that their shops might close and that their customers might go elsewhere.

Hubert will know all about this guy:

http://www.gregorianbivolaru.com/

What we do is constructively subversive, it threatens repressive people and the structures that they have built and they do not like this, whether we challenge them directly, or not.

I tend to feel that the direct challenge is wasted energy, but perhaps in some cases, when people are defaming yoga, it is right to challenge them.

I will not be defamed as a satanist or a sectarian.

[QUOTE=madeline_sweet;15032]Hello! In the spirit of discussion, I have always been taught that the difference between Christianity and other Religions is that Christianity teaches Salvation through the GRACE of Christ. Other religions teach {Like buddhism} that if you sit long enough, you may reach enlightenment - but with Christianity, it is only by Grace that we come to Salvation {there is no way we could earn it on our own}.

I truly do believe so many religions have the very same basic, good, loving, peaceful concepts - and I respect all religions, but there is something about Grace that really does resonate with me :slight_smile: And I think it is a key difference between Christianity and other faiths.

In Hinduism, I believe Nirvana can be reached by clearing your karma {am i correct in that}? I believe we are all seekers - and I respect those of all faiths, so I am only stating this for discussion Only! Not trying to create argument - only collaboration and discussion.[/QUOTE]

Yes, something like that.

Christianity insists that the mind or consciousness in itself is inactive or passive, that it cannot perform cognition without the instrumentality of the mental faculties being stimulated from the external worlld. Otherwise said, by Grace.

Patanjali’s sutras insists that the soul’s conscousness subsists in its operation, that it never ceases to be in a state of awareness. While the soul might use (body + mental) there is no essential dependence upon them.

With yoga meditation there is a dawning awareness: I am not my thoughts;
I am the thinker, not the thoughts.

Sutras afirm that the highest state of consciousness requires the meditator to expand awareness beyond the discursive mind (discursive= mind + senses).


Sometimes I have difficulties to understand the position of the Christian church, as it insists that the divine does not exist within you. But in the Bible, letter of Saint Paul to Colossians it is clearly written:

"God’s plan is this: to make known his secret to his people, the rich and glorious secret which he has for all people. And the secret is this: CHRIST IS IN YOU !

oak333 –
My perception of this difference is that Paul is emphasizing the sacredness of human life, while the Church (and of course when I say it capitalized, I mean Rome) teaches that spiritual human development is in relationship with each other and with God. That relationship entails a reaching toward each other (conversation, friendship, love) that is not necessary within one coherent being.
If in the understanding, Christ is in you, entails that one still must seek and that other people are useful (if not instrumental) in this seeking, then there’s not that much of a difference.
I haven’t checked the latin or greek (and wouldn’t be able to if I tried), but it could be that Paul’s word “you” was plural. The whole “where two or more are gathered” thing.

I was raised in a fairly strict protestant home. I always had unanswered questions about Christianity. A few years after practicing yoga asanas (I started during my early 20’s) I started meditating and reading books on Hinduism and Buddhism. At first I had the same inner conflict. However, I read books by christian monks who also claimed to be Buddhist (I can’t for the life of me remember any of the titles). I read about the christian mystics who practiced “contemplation” which seemed a lot like meditation to me. In short order my inner conflict dissolved. Now I am active student of advaita non-duality. There is lively discussion about whether a Christian can be a non-dualist. The debate doesn’t matter to me. Yoga and advaita resonate very well with me at this point. In fact, when I first started reading advaita (i.e. Maharaj Nisargadatta and others) my unanswered questions were answered. I agree with the others that say Yoga and Christianity are very compatible and that Yoga isn’t a religion. It’s a mechanism that deepens one’s unification with whichever deity / belief or non-belief system one has. It’s a grounding and liberating lifestyle suitable for everyone.

The issue with Christianity is that it’s an organised religion and like all organisations…wants to control its members!!!

In order to do that…the church has to create either FEAR OR GREED OR GUILT in you!!!

Yoga will help you to overcome all that and become integrated in your being!!!

And you will have a choice to follow your heart and experience the TRUTH CONCIOUSNESS & BLISS!!!:lol::p:grin:

The issue with Christianity is that it’s an organised religion and like all organisations…wants to control its members!!!

In order to do that…the church has to create either FEAR OR GREED OR GUILT in you!!!

Yoga will help you to overcome all that and become integrated in your being!!!

And you will have a choice to follow your heart and experience the TRUTH CONCIOUSNESS & BLISS!!!

I think that it depends on which kind of Christianity, I don’t see how it can be compatible with some fundamentalist Christian theology, the fire and brimstone kind. Kundalini = snake, asanas named after beasts, pagan origin, siddhis : satanic powers, no mention of salvation through Jesus, Patanjali : the incarnation of the divine snake Adishesha in mythology, Shiva riding the bull Nandi, mastering snakes, tapas increasing fire, mantras : magic aso… On the other hand, it can help to get out of some alienating conditioning and evolve spiritually. Of course, it can be fairly compatible with other more open-minded, uplifting versions of Christianity.

Philippe

Im not frightened of Jesus. His “followers” scare the hell out of me.

I believe I have yet to meet one actually ascribing to the master’s work.

Sanatana dharma does not treat humans as superior to beasts (animals).

Every form of life is sacred and its divinity is respected.

The ability to see divinity (TAT TWAM ASI) in others makes Sanatan Dharma a very viable alternative in todays time of hatred, fear, greed, war & jihad…

Love, respect, truth, compassion, satisfaction, simplicity, are words used superfluously…

Yoga is the joining of the OUTSIDE with the INSIDE…how can we do that if we don’t understand the interdependence of everything in creation!!!

[quote=premjit;15729]The issue with Christianity is that it’s an organised religion and like all organisations…wants to control its members!!!

In order to do that…the church has to create either FEAR OR GREED OR GUILT in you!!!

[/quote]

While it might be true to a certain degree, I am sure that there is more to the picture than this. :slight_smile:

First, not all organizations want to control their members. UNICEF is an organization, too. Of course, some minds will find and explain how some dark conspiracy is behind UNICEF, too, but come on, we know that with that attitude one cannot trust anything in this life. And while being careful never hurts, I rather think that trying to see the good in everything is much more suitable for a spiritual aspirant than criticising, and focusing on the bad things. The first approach is being open, requires awarness, patience, courage and right judgement (discernment). The second approach, that of rejection, is remaining shut, and blind to a part of the world we live in. This way, how can one learn, if one is jumping to conclusions without really knowing something, being repelled by the first signs of anything unpleasant ? Because that is what criticism, or focus on the bad side of things results in one’s soul, indifference, and false judgements. Prejudice. The worst person in the world is still a human being. Try to see him/her as yourself. Try to understand what is his/her world. Try to understand the bad things you say he/she does. Noone wants to err deliberatly. Everyone acts along the conditionings they have, and their aims are basically well intentioned, perhaps they somewhere through something slipped into something what is inhuman, or a great error. We know thet as a human beingis able to spiritually rise, there is also the other way. Why he/she has chose that way ? Where he/she did fail ? And I mean, not generally, or theoretically, but in his/her particular case. This means to care for your neighbour, to help him/her. Surely, there are many cases when because of ones’s own limits, or the nature of the faced person, this is impossible. But it is our duty to try, and when there is no effect, we can still think of them in a positive way, because our thoughts are forces shaping the world. If one thonks ill things about another one, the latter will be burdened by the negative effects of thes thoughts. But if one thinks well of somone, that helps that someone in his/her personal struggle.

Second: Today, there are few places in the western world where one is not free to follow any religion. Noone is directly forced to be christian, or any other religion. And there is alos what an early christian father said: One is not born christian, one becomes a christian. If this is true, than many christian s today are not really christians, they are juts christians as a social circumstance. Surely one can say that it is their karma to be so … but I think there is really little differrence betwenn a superficial christian, hindu, or a member of any other religion.

To be true, I refuse the idea of superiority of any religion above another one. A religion is superior only for a certain person, and at a ceirtain stage of his/her journey.
Now, I am christian, not by blind faith, or accepting something against my better judgemnt, or on behalf of my personal freedom, but because it makes sense. If for somone christianity does not make sense, that I can accept, but that does not mean it is meaningless.
Real christian’s are so few, that most of your concerns about chritsianity as organised religion, or actual theology are legit.
This is a yoga forum, so I am uneased a bit because I do not want to create false impressions, even though I know, I cannot avoid them.
But let me say this: if you knew what I know, you’d be christians too. Not churchgoing, crossmaking, Jesus praising christians, but christians by heart as I’d like to see myself. (meaning that I am just a faulty human being like we all are)

And the good knews is that there exists a world view, a cosmogony, what is accesible to our everyday intellect, reason, and what unites the wisdom of the east, and the pragmatism and history of the western world. Studying it, I found it to be an honest and very brave attempt of an initiate to communicate freely and in a comprehensible way to our everyday consaciousness the formerly hidden or unrealized truths of human evolution, world evolution, but never without relating it to our personal lives. I have been given many links to his works, greatly underrated and little known. His teaching is never in conflict with any tradition, rather, through his teachings I found them to be of much greater depth than before, and even though it is in conflict with the main theories of the materialist thories of natural sciences, signs and facts surface every day what justify it, while weakening the rule of the former.

So, by all means, seek, search, and accept only what you can accept as true, as Lord Buddha said. I did that, and I found that the main teachings of christianity are true. Everyone has the right to question them, but do not expect a simple answer. The wordlk and the human being is not simple. It is complex. The main strenght of yoga philospohy, that it speaks about man and the worlds in one liners, it is also it’s weakness. A pragmatic practice and guided meditation can make up for this, but those times have passed. Today, man’s (as human being, not as male) intelligence, sense of individuality, need for freedom make possible a mental comprehension of the greater picture, what is shockingly different of that of materialist science. But why tell this … find it out yourself. Otherwise you might have the impression that I want to stuff you with some creaionist stupidity, or some other aberration you witnessed among those whom you call christians, as God knows there are many.

Think, feel, will as free, independent human beings.

[QUOTE=Hubert;15747]While it might be true to a certain degree, I am sure that there is more to the picture than this. :slight_smile:

Real christian’s are so few, that most of your concerns about chritsianity as organised religion, or actual theology are legit.

Thats all I was trying to say to the lady who had a question!!!

There are no issue with Christian teachings…it is the organization which creates all the fear, greed and guilt!!! and thats what creates the disconnect with normal people…which YOGA can easily resolve!!!

No offence meant for any religion!!!

If you are interested than Paramhansa Nithyananda is visiting USA this march/april & will deliver the Yoga Sutras.

[QUOTE=premjit;15746]The ability to see divinity (TAT TWAM ASI) in others makes Sanatan Dharma a very viable alternative in todays time of hatred, fear, greed, war & jihad…[/QUOTE]

Why, what’s wrong with Yoga ? Yoga is the viable alternative, everybody is doing yoga,buddhists, christians, muslims & even sanatan dharmis (hindus). Yoga works for everyone :wink:

[QUOTE=Hubert;15306]

Generalizing is never useful.[/QUOTE]

All generalizations are false. If this statement is true, it is also false.

             Unknown

[QUOTE=guydoingyoga;15727]I was raised in a fairly strict protestant home. I always had unanswered questions about Christianity. A few years after practicing yoga asanas (I started during my early 20’s) I started meditating and reading books on Hinduism and Buddhism. At first I had the same inner conflict. However, I read books by christian monks who also claimed to be Buddhist (I can’t for the life of me remember any of the titles). I read about the christian mystics who practiced “contemplation” which seemed a lot like meditation to me. In short order my inner conflict dissolved. Now I am active student of advaita non-duality. There is lively discussion about whether a Christian can be a non-dualist. The debate doesn’t matter to me. Yoga and advaita resonate very well with me at this point. In fact, when I first started reading advaita (i.e. Maharaj Nisargadatta and others) my unanswered questions were answered. I agree with the others that say Yoga and Christianity are very compatible and that Yoga isn’t a religion. It’s a mechanism that deepens one’s unification with whichever deity / belief or non-belief system one has. It’s a grounding and liberating lifestyle suitable for everyone.[/QUOTE]

In my opinion, you are right. The old Christian mystics were practising meditation. They might have called it prayer or contemplation.

Evagrius was the one to establish in writing the monastic rules.

The Church evolved as an institution, basically replacing Christ consciousness with moral rules.

I was trying to show that in my posts, the last one on 02-Dec-08. But basically you find all the useful info in the book mentioned: Yoga and Christianity, by Justin O’Brien

As long as your core belief is “Christian” I think practising thoughtful meditation should in no way contradict any religious belief. Its just a way to connect to some higher self/being

[QUOTE=JamesS;15805]As long as your core belief is “Christian” I think practising thoughtful meditation should in no way contradict any religious belief. Its just a way to connect to some higher self/being[/QUOTE]

Yes, see Christian Meditation:

http://www.wccm.org/item.asp?recordid=faqs15&pagestyle=default

Simultaneously a particular person’s spiritual path might not be served with yoga. Folks can come to the prayerful determination that the mat just isn’t helping them.
So, I disagree with PatR.

[quote=oak333;15798]All generalizations are false. If this statement is true, it is also false.

Unknown[/quote]

Nice play with words, but it falls to the mistake of generalizing, again. Generalizations are not false, they are mostly true, but they MIGHT and probably are false in certain cases. You see the difference ? The keywords are: Might, and probably. So generalizing is a tool we use to predict a probability of something to happen, but we also need to leave room for unpredicted, peculiar to happen. Generalization is a tool to perceive order, and law in thr world. It mostly happens unconsciously, out of the necessity to comprehend the world and our life in it.

Generalization is prone to error, while is an useful tool. So here, I contradict myself , as I said earlier generalization is never useful. I’ll correct it now, and say: It is an useful tool but with a margin of error, and we need to be open to admit when it is not appliable, or even sometimes admit that it in a given case it is the very opposite of the truth.

Thank you for the opportunity given to think this through.