Yoga row between Indian Yogis and Western Yogis

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#100

I find it a sexist viewpoint that if a man has a problem leering, it’s the woman’s fault. It is sexist that women bear the brunt of accusation when it takes two to tango. When women are sexualized, men also participate in the sexualization! There would be no sexualization without the 2nd party who is looking at the woman with lust. Yet some men expect women to cater to their inability to control their desires. That is sexist manipulation.

I have been pinched and groped in India while wearing a kurti and jeans. I have never been pinched or groped (not even once) in a western country where I wear anything I want. My point in saying that is NOT that India is bad and the west is good. My point is this: whether a woman will be groped, pinched, leered at or sexualized has very little to do with what she chooses to wear that day.

Surya Deva, a topless woman only creates a stir in a culture where breasts are sexualized. As reaswaran pointed out, there are cultures where women go around topless and men think nothing of it, because breasts are not hidden and sexualized in these cultures. I find this to be evidence that what you perceive to be a clear difference in the female body is only a clear difference in how cultures [I]perceive[/I] the female body.

“a woman is somebodies daughter, mother, sister or wife”

I know that has some cultural importance for you, but it is only cultural and has no meaning to me besides stating the obvious. A man is somebody’s son, father, brother or husband.

My point as it relates to the OP is that it would be naive of us to say that the practice of yoga in India is, or ever was, pure and treated with 100% dignity, while in the west it is being perverted, sexualized and materialized. A culture will inevitably contribute the good and bad of that culture. As a result of sexism in India, women were excluded from yoga for centuries. Now women are free to learn about yoga along with men, but women are still subjected to scrunity over clothing, while men are not. And I find that to be sexist.

#101

[QUOTE=b.shahvir;54408]The sad part is for these women (Western or Indian), objectifying oneself equals to freedom & liberation. This is indeed sad but true![/QUOTE]

Yes, it’s sad that women have been robbed of freedom for so long that we are willing to do anything to get it. It’s sad that we as humans have created this situation.

#102

Trinley, you are absolving the women of all responsibility in how she dresses. Yes, in some cultures breasts are not considered sexual such as tribal cultures, but here the intention is different. In Western culture, when a woman dresses a certain way with very short skirts to show their legs, backless tops and tight tops that accentuate their breasts, the intention is sexual. I know fully well myself how women in the UK prepare for friday and saturday nights to impress the men. Then when the men reciprocate, it satisfies them. Of course, they also attract the attention of unwanted men as well.

Yes, sure women will get sexualised by men irrespective of what they are wearing, but it is common sense that if a woman is already sexualised that she will get more attention. If you walk about fully clothed, it is often a message to men that you are not looking for sexual attention. In fact you might be perceived as a challenge.

As a result of sexism in India, women were excluded from yoga for centuries.

You need to cite actual data if you are going to make such claims about my civilisation. Women were never excluded from Yoga. You need to bear in mind at least 30 of the authors of the most sacred scripture of India are women sages. In India, a women can rise to the highest post and become a guru. She can then go around teach men. India is full of examples of very powerful and respectable women, and in Western history there are barely none. I mean come on, the West is a civilisation which burned its women at stake. Before you hit back at me with wild claims of wife burning, this is an isolated socio-historical event which was bought on by Muslim men raping Hindu women, and in order to save their honour Hindu women preferred to immolate themselves. There is absolutely no evidence of any such endemic problem existing in Hindu society, other than as rare and isolated cases during Muslim rule.

#103

woman is somebodies daughter, mother, sister or wife"

I know that has some cultural importance for you, but it is only cultural and has no meaning to me besides stating the obvious. A man is somebody’s son, father, brother or husband.

Indeed it is stating the obvious, and indeed the same can apply to a man. However, there is no equivalent saying for the man, because the message is saying something deeper: women are to be respected. This has historically been a part of our culture. In fact it is said in our culture the death of any society begins when men start disrespecting and abusing women. In two of our biggest epics, the Mahabharata and Ramayana, two massive and devestating wars take place because a women was disrespected.

#104

I was wrong we have come to new topic .sex In recent times when I have gone to India I have been shocked by the lack of cultural sensitivity by mainly the British , as to what may be the norm or accectable to wear , There again it used to irritate me ,slightly , that back in the day when westerners seemed a little more aware in India as to how to dress , western women were portrayed as sex objects by the Indian advertising peeps , eg western women were always on packets of condoms , so it may not be surprising that young highly charged Indian boys seem to think it fine to go around groping women because they have somewhat warped ideas as to western sensibilities , the problem lies on both sides no ? We are of course dealing with two highly sexually repressed societies . Calmly discuss .
I seem to have read that India was not always so repressed in its attitudes , lots of colonised places were made to feel ashamed by their oppressors of sex or perceived sexuality ( ie just because your naked doesnt mean it has anything to do with sex , see naga babas , in fact yoga can be seen to be a spiritual striptease) not sure of history around this in India , but of course what was accectable must vary from state to state , for example the Andaman and nicobars now ironically oppressed by Indians how would they naturally dress ?
It is sad that our natural state has become so charged and laden with social anxiety. Me im cold so have plenty layers on

#105

Again, perception of Western women in India is very sexualised. Indian men think they are easy. It is unfortunate attitude really, but where there is smoke there is fire. Why do you think Western women are thought to be sex objects? Just taken a look at the nightlife culture in the West and it becomes very clear.

#106

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;54435]Again, perception of Western women in India is very sexualised. Indian men think they are easy. It is unfortunate attitude really, but where there is smoke there is fire. Why do you think Western women are thought to be sex objects? Just taken a look at the nightlife culture in the West and it becomes very clear.[/QUOTE]

My neighbor where i used to work - owned - yes a quickie mart - anyway that indian man was the horniest guy ever and he was married with children.

I’ve noticed this. Indians are horny.
They got 800 million people - somebody - been doing somebody - a lot.

Americans are horny.

Almost EVERYBODY horny.

Maybe the Indians are a little more repressed about it where as here and maybe in Briton you had the ‘sexual revolution.’ in the 60’s.

So perhaps the west is more open about that…This is simply a cultural difference.

#107

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;54425]Trinley, you are absolving the women of all responsibility in how she dresses. [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=trinley;54417] It is sexist that women bear the brunt of accusation when it takes two to tango. When women are sexualized, men also participate in the sexualization! [/QUOTE]

Look, I can’t be bothered to read your posts if you don’t bother to read mine and respond to what I actually wrote. I said it’s unfair that women bear the brunt. I said that men [B]also[/B] participate in sexualization. I said it takes [B]two[/B] to tango. The two I am referring to are the man and the woman. You speak as if there are only two possibilities: all the woman’s fault or all the man’s. You are so convinced of this that you can’t even read clearly. My statement that women do not bear [B]all[/B] the guilt does not mean that men instead bear [B]all[/B] the guilt. You are trying to change my words so that you can push your viewpoint. I’m sorry, but there’s no longer any point in me continuing to debate an issue with a person who is unwilling to even listen to the other side. I might as well be talking to a wall.

#108

You are being rather intolerant in the way you are debating, do you have a chip on your shoulder? All I am pointing out is something which is obvious, if women dress in such a way as to objectivity themselves sexually, then these women are obviously responsible for presenting these images to men. If you read carefully, I had actualy said that I find discussions by my male friends where they objectify women to be uncomfortable and alienating, and I have actually made it a point to tell my male friends that I do not approve of this anymore. So, no I am not squarely putting the blame at the womans door step, but rather I am saying that in Western culture this relationship of the women as the sex object and the man as her consumer has been internalized. This is unfortunate.

I think Western culture can learn something from Indian cultural ethos that women need to be respected. However, this also means women need to respect themselves. And the millions of British women who objectify themselves every friday and saturday night, clearly do not respect themselves.

#109

[QUOTE=The Scales;54438]My neighbor where i used to work - owned - yes a quickie mart - anyway that indian man was the horniest guy ever and he was married with children.

I’ve noticed this. Indians are horny.
They got 800 million people - somebody - been doing somebody - a lot.

Americans are horny.

Almost EVERYBODY horny.

Maybe the Indians are a little more repressed about it where as here and maybe in Briton you had the ‘sexual revolution.’ in the 60’s.

So perhaps the west is more open about that…This is simply a cultural difference.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I agree. It is human nature for men to find women sexy, and people will continue having sex whether women wear bikinis and burqas. Repression of women does not reduce men’s sexual desire at all.

#110

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;54404]
Now when I go out and such discussions take place, I roll my eyes and find it really uncomfortable.[/QUOTE]

Well, at least you’re getting some excercise.

I agree with you. India is a very backward and unenlightened society that subjugates her women and restricts their rights as given to men. Hopefully the new media will awaken and enlighten the people and they will demand freedom from male-dominated, antiquated doctrine. Fingers crossed. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

#111

Come on Flexpenguin, you can’t talk. Western women are treated like sex objects in their society, and foolishly have accepted this role and deluded themselves into thinking this is liberation and freedom :smiley:

You cannot compare such a society where women are treated with so much disrespect to a society where women became gurus, risis and sages.

I am sorry your civilisation is barbaric, and I say this because everybody knows how women were historically treated in the West and how tens of thousands were burned at the stake. I told you if you openly insult my civilisation, I will openly insult yours. And while were at it, let me remind you the country you live in does not even belong to you. It belongs to the Native Americans, who are now the most deprived and marginalized people in North America.

#112

[QUOTE=trinley;54442]Yes, I agree. It is human nature for men to find women sexy, and people will continue having sex whether women wear bikinis and burqas. Repression of women does not reduce men’s sexual desire at all.[/QUOTE]

I second that! NONE of us would be here, and own species would disappear if our sex drives weren’t overpowering. This is the comical bit I find in many religions… this kind of aversion, and frowning upon sex, yet you wouldn’t even be here if it wasn’t for sex, and your family would fade away if it wasn’t for sex… and if you think a burqas is going to change that, your overly optimistic to say the least.

#113

second that! NONE of us would be here, and own species would disappear if our sex drives weren’t overpowering.

The very use of the emboldened word suggests imbalance. If you are honestly feeling urges to seek sex, then this indicates that something is wrong. A healthy individual does not have urges to have sex, but rather has sex as a natural extension for their affection for their partner. This type of sex is very healthy and should be encouraged. What you suggest is not healthy and it is based on an actual recognised vice that affects our mind, lust, which when “overpowering” can become a force of destruction.

#114

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;54477]The very use of the emboldened word suggests imbalance. If you are honestly feeling urges to seek sex, then this indicates that something is wrong. A healthy individual does not have urges to have sex, but rather has sex as a natural extension for their affection for their partner. This type of sex is very healthy and should be encouraged. What you suggest is not healthy and it is based on an actual recognised vice that affects our mind, lust, which when “overpowering” can become a force of destruction.[/QUOTE]

Actually a mental disorder is defined by it’s influence on your day to day functioning. If my behavior does not effect my ability to go to work, pay the bills, maintain social relationships, attend to daily living skills such as cooking cleaning etc… then it’s actually considered normal. If I have urges to seek sex, it’s a normal part of being a human. If doesn’t effect my normal day to day functioning, than a psych. doctor would not consider it a disorder.

#115

This maybe the dogma of the psychiatric community, but it does not stand to reason. It is possible to have a disease and still function in day to day life. I have a friend who suffer from anxiety disorders, but can hold a job, do their daily chores and even maintain relationships. However, internally my friend is a wreck. Always worrying, worried about how he is being judged.

Just because somebody may appear to be functionally normally, does not mean that internally they are balanced. What you have suggested to me by saying “overpowering” is a cause for concern, this suggests that something exists within you(lust) that diminishes your control. Rather than you being in control, something is more powerful than you. This is indicative of something wrong with your normal sexual function. You may not be able to see it, but subtly it is there lodged in your unconscious mind.

I’ve always thought there is something wrong with you sexually to be honest, because of how you have regularly, almost obsessively talked about sex on this forum and boasted about your sexual conquests. You have pointed this out, even when the discussion was not relevant.

You have a nascent sexual problem, my friend.

#116

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;54479]You have a nascent sexual problem, my friend.[/QUOTE]

Awesome!! Thanks doc!! I’m official diagnosed as a stud!!!

#117

Shiva Rea combines strength and flexibility in a female form that is rarely seen in India.

Most of the indian women i’ve seen are little on the soft side to put it well.

Those ol indian fuddy duddies must have saw something too hot and exotic for them to handle and had to leave before they lost total control - like adam is prone to do because of all his testosterone.

Also she comes from a dance background. I see nothing wrong with artistic expression in the form of dance.

Shiva Dances doesn’t he?

Dance is one of the original arts if you ask me. That and fly fishing.

I would suspect her moves weren’t anything more raunchy than I’ve seen Indian women do… in thier traditional dance. They most likely weren’t raunchy at all. Considering that shes a smart gal and knew where she was. Now if she was spinning around a pole to rap music, and running a feather boa between her legs - then maybe. But I seriously doubt it.

The ol fuddy duddy prudes were just fuddy duddy prudes.

Makes me question their yogictude.

#118

[QUOTE=The Scales;54490]like adam is prone to do because of all his testosterone. [/QUOTE]

:slight_smile: aww come on… that’s not fair… all men have testosterone lol

#119

Aren’t we on yoga forums??..pls. cut out the soft porn!