Your religion and abortion

Spirituality Religion
#21

[QUOTE=thomas;48876]You understand there is a soul in six months, but who can verify that?

What if it is there from conception.

What then.[/quote]

What is genital warts or prostate tumors have souls? what then.

Somehow after 50,000,000 abortions in the US alone since it’s been legal, I don’t think “oops” would be sufficient.

But the sad reality is that many who support abortion rights don’t give a rat’s rear end whether there is a soul there. They are just as pro-abortion even if it is presumed the embryo or fetus has a soul.

Funny, the same could be said about your treatment of homosexuals…
you support giving full human rights to a little bundle of cells zygote but two gay adults who love each other in the privacy of their own home are gonna burn in hell…

#22

I like what Sam Harris said

“20 percent of all recognized pregnancies end in miscarriage. There is an obvious truth here that cries out for acknowledgement: if God exists, He is the most prolific abortionist of all.”
—“Letter to a Christian Nation” by Sam Harris

#23

[QUOTE=YogiAdam;48887]I like what Sam Harris said

“20 percent of all recognized pregnancies end in miscarriage. There is an obvious truth here that cries out for acknowledgement: if God exists, He is the most prolific abortionist of all.”
—?Letter to a Christian Nation? by Sam Harris[/QUOTE]

I’ve heard that before. Great quote.
Also, think about how many pregnant women got flushed down the drain during the “Great Flood”. If it’s to be believed that “God” caused the entirety of the unwanted human race to be drowned, short of Noah & his kids & a boatload of animals… if “God” can flush everyone down the drain, then what’s wrong with a 1st Trimester abortion???

#24

[QUOTE=Indra Deva;48877]What is genital warts or prostate tumors have souls? what then.

Funny, the same could be said about your treatment of homosexuals…
you support giving full human rights to a little bundle of cells zygote but two gay adults who love each other in the privacy of their own home are gonna burn in hell…[/QUOTE]

Indra Deva? Is that really you who is speaking? Or is it your good twin? I am having a hard time believing YOU said this…Congratulations.

#25

Funny, the same could be said about your treatment of homosexuals…
you support giving full human rights to a little bundle of cells zygote but two gay adults who love each other in the privacy of their own home are gonna burn in hell…

Funny, that I don’t “treat” homosexuals any differently than anyone else, but that I have only stated that I believe homosexual behavior is a sin and a disorder.

And I don’t say that homosexuals should be killed, as you seem to be saying about the life in the womb–at least that life that is unwanted and inconvenient.

I don’t say that homosexuals should be killed, but rather believe they should be treated with love and compassion, but you seem to be saying life in the womb can be killed at will, so I think there’s a huge difference.

Regardless, this is a discussion about abortion, and not homosexuality. Even if my thinking is wrong about homosexuality, that doesn’t mean it’s wrong to oppose the unjust violence to life in the womb.

#26

IMOHO…

Government should stay and keep out of this issue. It is a moral decision. A person can be pro-choice but against abortion. If that is the case, education is the key.

Yes Thomas, I can see you treating gay people with love and compassion, but why would you do so if they are sinners in your eyes? Do you truly have love for them or pity that they do not conform nicely into your religious dogma? Do you think if you show them love and compassion that they will somehow change? Again, God is a God of love. Love of all creatures.

#27

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;48933]IMOHO…

Government should stay and keep out of this issue. It is a moral decision. A person can be pro-choice but against abortion. If that is the case, education is the key.

Yes Thomas, I can see you treating gay people with love and compassion, but[B] why would you do so if they are sinners in your eyes?[/B] [B]Do you truly have love for them or pity that they do not conform nicely into your religious dogma?[/B] Do you think if you show them love and compassion that they will somehow change? Again, God is a God of love. Love of all creatures.[/QUOTE]

Once again, when I say the same thing about Christians and Muslims on their views of Hinduism, I get called a racist and Hindutva nationalist. Societal double standard and anti-Hindu/Indian bias FTW!

Other than that, this is exactly the same question I wanted to ask Thomas…and have been asking him for quiet a while now, regarding the way he sees other religions.

#28

I am of two minds on this. I believe life and a level of consiousness begins at conception. It has too. The countdown begins then. But, it is the degree of development and self awareness that is unknown (that which is apart from the physical). 25 years ago my partner and I decided to abort for sound reasons, so I support the right to choose, but funny enough I still carry a little emotional baggage after all these years.

#29

N,

All I was doing was asking Thomas some questions in hopes of better understanding. No put downs or I’m better than you mentality. Just curious as to his reasoning.

#30

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;48946]N,

All I was doing was asking Thomas some questions in hopes of better understanding. No put downs or I’m better than you mentality. Just curious as to his reasoning.[/QUOTE]

And all I was doing was pointing out a hypocritical statement. Take it how you will.

Anyway, this is another discussion for another thread, for another time. My fault. I want to see where this debate on “religion and abortion” goes.

#31

N,
Fair enough. Still don’t see the hypocrisy though. But it’s Ok.

#32

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;48963]N,
Fair enough. Still don’t see the hypocrisy though. But it’s Ok.[/QUOTE]

The statement I highlighted in your post. I was pointing out that whenever SD or I make the same argument against Christians and Muslims regarding their views on other religions, we are labeled “racists,” “intolerant,” and “Hindutva nationalists.” But when you, or others in line with your views, say the same thing, albeit in a chocolate-covered -with-cherries-on-top manner, it is to be accepted. Anti-Hindu/Indian and Westernized sentiment perhaps (which I am inclined to believe of late)? Idk.

#33

N,

[B]Outside of a few members, there hasn’t been any anti hindu or racist comments. If nothing else, the vast majority of those here are grateful to Hinduism and have repeatedly said this over and over. Go back and read some of the threads. [B]

And at this point that’s all that needs to be said. We shall allow the tread to continue as the OP would like.

#34

That argument is next to meaningless. There isn’t an operational CNS, its just another lump of cells.

But, it is the degree of development and self awareness that is unknown (that which is apart from the physical).

Again, it’s all intangibles. An adult in a persistent vegetative state is more “human” than a zygote.

#35

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;48976]N,

[B]Outside of a few members, there hasn’t been any anti hindu or racist comments. If nothing else, the vast majority of those here are grateful to Hinduism and have repeatedly said this over and over. Go back and read some of the threads. [B]

And at this point that’s all that needs to be said. We shall allow the tread to continue as the OP would like.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. But I would like to leave you with one last sentence:

“I should have realized that few members of a race that has oppressed another race can understand or appreciate the deep groans and passionate yearnings of those that have been oppressed and still fewer have the vision to see that injustice must be rooted out by strong, persistent and determined action.” - Martin Luther King.

#36

[QUOTE=Nietzsche;48989]Agreed. But I would like to leave you with one last sentence:

“I should have realized that few members of a race that has oppressed another race can understand or appreciate the deep groans and passionate yearnings of those that have been oppressed and still fewer have the vision to see that injustice must be rooted out by strong, persistent and determined action.” - Martin Luther King.[/QUOTE]

Why don’t you just change your sig to “I HATE WHITE PEOPLE” and leave it at that, you whiner.

#37

[QUOTE=Indra Deva;48987]That argument is next to meaningless. There isn’t an operational CNS, its just another lump of cells.

Again, it’s all intangibles. An adult in a persistent vegetative state is more “human” than a zygote.[/QUOTE]

So, give me something that isn’t meaningless or intangible. When does consiousness begin? An hour before birth? A week? 3 months? Yes, it is a zygote and a lump of cells, but it is unique from other lumps of cells in that at the moment of conception a system of development has begun which makes this lump alive and separate from it’s host. Someone in a vegetative state is no less human than you are, but their quality of life and awareness may differ and so we can judge if that quality should be maintained or terminated. So too with the lowly zygote - human, alive, with or without a CNS, but developmentally incapable of controlling it’s existence or continuence. That’s left up to the will of the host.

#38

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;48933]IMOHO…

Government should stay and keep out of this issue. It is a moral decision. A person can be pro-choice but against abortion. If that is the case, education is the key.

Yes Thomas, I can see you treating gay people with love and compassion, but why would you do so if they are sinners in your eyes? Do you truly have love for them or pity that they do not conform nicely into your religious dogma? Do you think if you show them love and compassion that they will somehow change? Again, God is a God of love. Love of all creatures.[/QUOTE]

There are plenty of people who live lives that don’t conform to my religious beliefs, including members of my own family. I don’t treat anyone any differently because of that, especially since I know that I too am a sinner, and could easily fall into serious sin if I am not careful.

But in regards to the topic of this thread, if I am opposed to slavery, but feel the government should stay out of it, and that that it is up to the individual to decide whether or not to own slaves, what good does that position do the slave?

Over 3,000 lives are destroyed every day in the US by abortion. What is wrong with standing up for them and being their voice? What is wrong with the government protecting them, like it protects the rest of us?

#39

[QUOTE=thomas;49003]Greetings again young whippersnappers! Prepare to fall under my superior wisdom, a wisdom that comes only with advanced age! MUHAHHA[/QUOTE]

Oh HAI Thomas. You are back! How are you?

#40

[QUOTE=FlexPenguin;49000]So, give me something that isn’t meaningless or intangible. When does consiousness begin? An hour before birth? A week? 3 months? Yes, it is a zygote and a lump of cells, but it is unique from other lumps of cells in that at the moment of conception a system of development has begun which makes this lump alive and separate from it’s host. Someone in a vegetative state is no less human than you are, but their quality of life and awareness may differ and so we can judge if that quality should be maintained or terminated. So too with the lowly zygote - human, alive, with or without a CNS, but developmentally incapable of controlling it’s existence or continuence. That’s left up to the will of the host.[/QUOTE]

I think we all can agree that a fully developed fetus at 8 months is a “person” or has all the qualities of personhood a newborn would have.

If therefore we can morally bestow personhood at some point during its life in the womb, how can we say this happens some time after conception? If it does, then when? And why that point and not two days before that point?

And if we we have doubts, should’t we err on the side of life? If we see a man lying in the street, should we call the undertaker, or should we call an ambulance?