Can a Christian be a Yogi?

What does is say about Hinduism and yoga when swamis and gurus have sex with their followers? I think it says that these people failed and abused their positions of power and authority, but it doesn’t say that it’s the fault of Hinduisim or yoga, and it would be unfair to say that it was.

Hinduism is not an organized religion with a clergy. So if an individual Hindu guru/swami does something unbecoming, those actions only reflect the individiaul guru/swami. It is not the same in Christianity, because it has a clergy and thus their actions are representative. If this includes the highest places in the Church this is an indictment on Christianity.

Moreover, we understand the swamis actions as not absolute evils. We understand that overall these swamis are developed souls, but they have not reached enlightenment yet and still suffer from pangs of desire. This does not mean we will reject them outright, we can still learn from them.

Humans CAN follow dictates. Humans can resist doing wrong because of fear of punishment. Humans can also transcend that and do right out of a love of God. Humans can also sin and stumble and be forgiven and start over.

I have met many “average joes” in my church who are good holy and spirtual people because of their devotion to Catholicism.

The fear of God is just the beginning, as would be a fear of imprisonment to someone inclined to stealing. Eventually that fear can be refined into a desire to do good.

This is basically primitive psychology. This psychology teaches the basic carrot and stick approach. If somebody does wrong you punish them and if somebody does right you reward them. It has been found in modern psychology that this is the most ineffective way of training humans, and in fact produces rebellion, resentment and repression. This is historically reflected in the sexual revolution in Europe, as soon as the Church’s influence waned on the life of individuals in Europe in victorian times, what followed was an explosion of repressed sexuality.

You keep ignoring these facts of history. You keep ignoring the huge endemic problem of child molestation and sexual deviancy in your own Church. They are outcomes of the bad psychology employed in your religion.

It has instead been found in modern psychology that the best way to train a human is not punish or reward them if they do something wrong, but to regulate their behaviour using positive and negative reinforcement. A negative reinforcement is when the human is subjected to unpleasurable circumstances and the action that produces pleasurable feelings then becomes enforced. The human then learns the action that produces a pleasurable response and does that. A positive reinforcement is when the human is subjected to pleasurable circumstances, and the action that produces non-pleasurable feelings then becomes non-enforced. The human then learns the action that produces a non-pleasurable response and does that.

However this kind of classical conditioning applies mostly to animals because they are more stimulus-response driven, than humans. More effective methods based on learning approach in psychology is to use variable positive and negative enforcements. This is when a pleasurable feeling is then not produced always by the same action, but only sometimes. This kind of approach is used very effectively by corporations in order to maintain employees.

Yoga psychology goes further than modern psychology by using the natural pleasure and pain responses of the body and allowing the subject themselves through awareness to note which responses produce pleasure and which produce pain. The subject then learns how to behave in a manner that will produce maximum pleasure for themselves e.g., which breathing techniques produce the most relaxation and mental balance, which postures produce the best spinal alignment, which food produces the most healthy state. As this is naturally learned behaviour this type of learning is the most effective and most enduring.

The difference between Christianity and Yoga/Hinduism is not just merely ideological and doctrinal, it is the difference between primitive and advanced.
Christianity is based on primitive cosmology, psychology, physics, sociology and this is why it is problem-laden. Hinduism and Buddhism are based on advanced cosmology, psychology, physics and sociology and this is why they are less problem-laden.

Christianity is clearly on its way out. We have rejected most of Christian cosmology, psychology, physics and sociology already in the modern world, in favour of the modern - in favour of the Eastern.

The history of modern civilisation is a history of the rejection of Christianity. In premodern times we were all expected to blindly obey and accept everything the Church said. Its views on cosmology, psychology, sociology, physics, medicine, theology etc. But the Church lost its influence with the rise of science. As soon as people were freed from the shackles of religion and allowed to think freely, people began to increasingly reject the Church.

The biggest blow to the Church was the Copernician revolution which overturrned the geocentric cosmologies. The earth was not the centre of the universe, it was in fact just a planet orbitting a sun in a universe that consisted of innumerable suns. This was the beginning of the fall of man from his own believed greatness. Then Galileo overturrned the Aristotlian physical view of the world as being governed by divine will, and showed in fact the universe was governed by natural, predictable laws. Later, creationism was overturrned by Darwin, geologists and astronomers who showed the Earth is not in fact 4000 years old, but billions of years old. Modern humans were not created, they evolved gradually from single celled organisms to primates and then humans. The universe was not created in 6 days and put to rest, but it started with the big bang and is constantly in motion and change. Then Freud destroyed the illusion of free will, and showed that we are determined by unconscious desires.

Meanwhile, the masses rose up against the theocratic sociology where the aristocrats ruled by divine inheritance, drove them out, and free thinking and enterprising humans instead took positions of power in society.

When we look back on history today we see modern times as the rise of man against the religion of Christianity. He rejected what the Church said to him, and decided to find out his own truths.

Does the sun really go around the Earth? False, the earth goes around the sun in a solar system, which in turn goes around a galaxy of innumerable solar systems.
Did god really create the world in 7 days? False, the universe began billions of years ago in a big bang, expanded and evolved and finally evolved life.
Is the world really governed by divine will? False, the universe is governed by predictable, measurable natural laws
Do humans really have free will? False, humans are governed by unconscious forces.
Do the rulers really rule by divine rights? False, the rulers rule by brute force. It is not divinely ordained.

The Church has been struggling ever since and had no choice but to reinterpret everything it once taught as fact to stay alive.

Today, the challenge comes not from science but from Eastern religions. Modern humans now rejects even the “spiritual” beliefs and methods of Christianity.

Baptism and confessions for Yoga/ Meditation
Resurrection for Reincarnation
Personal God for Divine Force/Energy
Immaculate conception for skepticism whether Jesus even existed

You keep ignoring these facts of history. You keep ignoring the huge endemic problem of child molestation and sexual deviancy in your own Church. They are outcomes of the bad psychology employed in your religion.

As I stated previously, the scandal was not about child molestation, but about homosexual priests preying on male teenagers involving consentual relationships. This of course is very evil and wrong, but was not child molestation. And it involved a few and not many and is condemned by all practicing Catholics. You cannot make a case that this is caused by Catholicism any more than I can make a case that Swamis who are womanizers are that way because of Hinduism.

The incident with Galileo had to do with his treading into theology, not his scientific discoveries, which were not entirely accurate, since he thought the sun was the center of the universe. (But relatively speaking, any point could be determined to be a center).

The Catholic Church has never reversed doctrine. The Catholic Church is the same today as it was when founded by Jesus. The only difference is development of Doctrine. There are no reinterpretations of doctrine.

And nobody except mostly fundamentalists, who are not Catholic, beleive that the earth was created in a literal seven days.

Hinduism is not an organized religion with a clergy. So if an individual Hindu guru/swami does something unbecoming, those actions only reflect the individiaul guru/swami. It is not the same in Christianity, because it has a clergy and thus their actions are representative. If this includes the highest places in the Church this is an indictment on Christianity.

So if a police officer commits a crime, that is an idictment against law enforcement?

No, you are quite wrong. Christians can and do fail. Sometimes those who should know better fail the worst. That’s not an indictment against the system, but evidence of the weakness of man.

Swamis can and do poach thier female followers and you can’t divorce yourself from those creeps anymore than I can divorce myself from priests who have similarly failed, and in neither case is it fair to point to them as if they are the fruits of their religion, when in fact they are the result of men who chose to go against their religion and commit horrible sins.

Immaculate conception for skepticism whether Jesus even existed

You are once again demonstrating your ignorance about Catholicism, and don’t know what “immaculate conception” means.

hahahaha Thomas I am shocked completely and utterly shocked!.. your Profile picture…THE POPE, and THE EMPEROR
well I say well, oow ay tut n hahahahahh

carry on

This is historically reflected in the sexual revolution in Europe, as soon as the Church’s influence waned on the life of individuals in Europe in victorian times, what followed was an explosion of repressed sexuality.

They were free to choose to sin, just like you are free to choose to fornicate, and excuse it by calling it “regulation” instead of what it really is.

Surya says
The history of modern civilisation is a history of the rejection of Christianity. In premodern times we were all expected to blindly obey and accept everything the Church said. Its views on cosmology, psychology, sociology, physics, medicine, theology etc. But the Church lost its influence with the rise of science. As soon as people were freed from the shackles of religion and allowed to think freely, people began to increasingly reject the Church.

Kareng says
Its materialism combined with Science…This will happen in India in time…India is materialistically rising, day by day, wait till it takes off in total and you will see the masses rejecting Hinduism for materialism, if it isn’t already happening…thats what happened to Christianity. remember what ive said and watch it taken apart in your lifetime.

In England around me, Pakistan Muslims, the young are ducking and diving from their parents and grandparents so they can date English girls, go for a drinks, hang out in nightclubs and have full western materialistic fun…in just 2 or 3 generations to come they wont be worshiping Allah here. The very same thing will happen to the young in India, Hindus etc when they get the full impact of materialism.
…dont for a second think it wont!
[B]
Religions thrive while ever there is suffering, when you take suffering away, religions suffer and the numbers of followers drop[/B]

Thomas says…No, you are quite wrong. Christians can and do fail. Sometimes those who should know better fail the worst. That’s not an indictment against the system, but evidence of the weakness of man.

Kareng says…I agree

[QUOTE=kareng;41046]Can you outline what it says Oak333[/QUOTE]

Yes. Look in the thread “yoga and Christianity.”

Cheers Oak I have bookmarked it…xx

The Catholic Church has never reversed doctrine. The Catholic Church is the same today as it was when founded by Jesus. The only difference is development of Doctrine. There are no reinterpretations of doctrine.

Nonsense. The Catholic church of today and the church that was set up after the death of Jesus by Paul are not the same and do not teach the same things.

Regarding the child molestation issues in the Church. The record on this has already been made to clear to you.

Yes, it is an indictement on your religion when members of your Church engage in immoral and illegal practices, because your religion has a clergy which makes decisions for the rest of the religion. If they themselves cannot maintain what your doctrine teaches, then the average joe cannot either.

The modern world has rejected Christianity for a very good reason. We will not return to it ever again.

There are a billion Catholics, so that’s not a rejection.

A bad apple in the clergy does not mean they are all bad, just like a bad policeman does not mean they are all bad or that the laws are bad.

Anyway, please enlighten me further about your comment about the “immaculate conception.”

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;41713]Comparing the primitive ten commandments with the enlightened 8-fold path of Buddhism or the yama and niyamas of Yoga is like comparing stone wheel carts with maglev trains

The ten commandments are absolute laws we must abide by or else face death. The 8-fold path and the yamas and niyamas are general guidelines humans should follow to live a life of well being.

Humans cannot follow dictates. They can follow guidelines, provided those guidelines are sensible.

KARENG SAYS…
The part of the ten commandments you are choosing to debate is… Thou shalt not…and what lies around that.
I am referring to the [B]content[/B] which would fall into the eightfold path.
In that Thomas and I are on the same page.

Buddhism does not discount other peoples faiths, SD does, therefore Hinduism does.

The current Dalai Lama thinks it is wonderful that there are many other faiths. Just as one food taste is liked by one person and not, by another.

“immaculate conception.” this is Suryas view on Hinduism Thomas…I’m right yes Surya ? :smiley:

The 8-fold path says nothing like this:

Do not have any other gods before me.

You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me

Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy.
For six days you shall labour and do all your work.
But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns.


Anything can be taken out of context and twisted to mean anything. If we just look at this simplistically then yeah the ten commandments are a moral code like the 8-fold path. If we look at this critically, then moral code of the ten commandments is very different to the moral code of the 8-fold path.

Buddhism discounts faith. The Buddha himself says do not believe in a word of what he says, but rather to allow ones own experience validate what he says.

I do not believe in half the stories you hear about Krishna in the Puranas. So I am sure as hell not going to believe Jesus was conceived from a virgin :smiley:

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;41822]I do not believe in half the stories you hear about Krishna in the Puranas. So I am sure as hell not going to believe Jesus was conceived from a virgin :D[/QUOTE]

That is not the “immaculate conception.”

The Immaculate Conception of Mary is, according to Catholic doctrine, the conception of the Virgin Mary without any stain ("immacula" in Latin) of Original Sin.[1] It is one of the four dogmas in Roman Catholic Mariology. Under this aspect Mary is sometimes called the Immaculata (the Immaculate One), particularly in artistic contexts.[2]

The doctrine states that, from the first moment of her existence, Mary was preserved by God from the Original Sin and filled with sanctifying grace that would normally come with baptism after birth. Catholics believe Mary "was free from any personal or hereditary sin".[3][4]

Yes I was looking at the parallels, not the ones that arnt Surya, so in that sense, yes simplistically.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;41829]The Immaculate Conception of Mary is, according to Catholic doctrine, the conception of the Virgin Mary without any stain (“immacula” in Latin) of Original Sin.[1] It is one of the four dogmas in Roman Catholic Mariology. Under this aspect Mary is sometimes called the Immaculata (the Immaculate One), particularly in artistic contexts.[2]

The doctrine states that, from the first moment of her existence, Mary was preserved by God from the Original Sin and filled with sanctifying grace that would normally come with baptism after birth. Catholics believe Mary “was free from any personal or hereditary sin”.[3][4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception[/QUOTE]

Very good on the google search to cover your butt.

But that’s not what you thought it meant when you posted it.