Did I experience Pratyahara?

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#52

[QUOTE=Nila;57178]Hej Scales,

[B]I’m not looking to get involved in this argument, but I’m curious to know how you think about the links between age, experience and knowledge? Are the requirements for attaining a high level of skill/proficiency (or whichever word is better to use here) directly connected to someone’s age, or to the number of years a person has studied or practiced a certain subject? [/B]

I have been thinking a lot about this regarding something which is not very much related to yoga at all (or this thread, OT, sorry!) and am interested in all points of views regarding learning - teaching - age - experience…[/QUOTE]

I would say there are several factors that combine in variable degrees that equate to ‘proficiency’ at a skill.

Intelligence.
Time spent in practice.
Focus.

#53

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;57172]Om,

That is good if it is true, continue practicing it. It will sharpen your concentration. But do not be surprised if it may take some time. But so far, the practice of concentration is not meditation. When your attention is flowing with one-pointedness over a certain span of time, eventually the effort of the mind disappears, and you will enter into spontaneous meditation. But it requires your attention to be uninterrupted and unbroken - a constant current without any gaps.[/QUOTE]

This is a lie. At all times there is SOME effort of the mind via the will in regards to meditation.

At all times.

#54

[QUOTE=The Scales;57181]I would say there are several factors that combine in variable degrees that equate to ‘proficiency’ at a skill.

Intelligence.
Time spent in practice.
Focus.[/QUOTE]

Would you care to elaborate on the intelligence part?

#55

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;57171]Scales,

"He disparages the wise… "

I have not disparaged anybody, I have just said that there are relative skillful means, there is no absolute method. And if you want - I can give you countless different examples as to why this is so.

[B]THe Scales says no I don’t want your crap. Shove it. You disparage the wise all the time. Call them liars. Undermine the teachings. Your a chump. Plain and simple. [/B]

“He doesn’t give a method other than “meditation” which is about as ambiguous as it gets”

If you want it to be less ambiguous, spend less time running around seeking attention and more time in practice.

"[B]I dont’ need any teaching from a child. Your an idiot. A fraud and a phoney.
Thats why you make things ambiguous. Dum. Dum. Dum. and never give specific examples beyond what can be found in a book.

Why would I listen to your teaching? I wouldn’t. Also. Moron. I punked your stupid 1001 and techniques.

There are but a couple. [B]and I know what they are and how to combine them. They don’t involve meditation - which is what I said. You don’t speak on that though. [/B][/B]

[B]You seriously can’t be this lame. I hope you realize that there are many on here that see you as a complete gnome and lamer. [/B]

You have got to get up real early and eat your wheaties to even approach my spiritual jock. But still you will fail.

You are a child. You can’t win. I will trounce you again and again.

“You are 25 years old.”

Again, wisdom and experience is not a matter of time. There are people who are eighty five years of age, and they are still psychologically not more than perhaps fifteen years old. Their body continued growing, but inwardly they stagnated. Just as it is possible for somebody who is old to be asleep, it is possible for somebody young to be awake. It is not a question of time at all.

[B]You don’t even know what you don’t know.

You are just a baby. Go suck your lolly pop and play with your G.I. Joes or legos or whatever it is you play with.

25 years old and thinks he’s figured something out.

Preposterous. [/B]

[/QUOTE]

[B]also

Let me make this perfectly clear to you so you can understand it.

Becaues thus far you clearly haven’t gotten it yet.

You are literally a child.

you have NOTHING to teach me about spiritual matters.

AT ALL. EVER.

Your knowledge is wrong.

Your an arrogant prick.

I could take you being an arrogant prick if your knowledge was right.

I can take you being an idiot if you were humble and kind.

I can’t take you being both an asshole and an idiot, and a champion of delusion.

Plus your a kid.

and a chump.

Thats why I zero in on you.[/B]

#56

[QUOTE=Nila;57185]Would you care to elaborate on the intelligence part?[/QUOTE]

Perhaps if one were smarter than another, and with all variables being equal, (which is unlikely) the smarter of the two - would learn and get better faster.

Thats not to say the slower of the two couldn’t eventually be good, great, or even better - as there other factors involved.

#57

[QUOTE=The Scales;57176]Do you know why your doing this? and how it does what it do?[/QUOTE]

Well I know, being a part of niyama it prepares you by increasing your ability to concentrate.

Please tell me the precise benefits.

#58

[QUOTE=om_namah_shivay;57225]Well I know, being a part of niyama it prepares you by increasing your ability to concentrate.

Please tell me the precise benefits.[/QUOTE]

For the noobie through the practice of fixed gazes some of the various “psychic head centers” become harmonized.

Ajna is one. and at this particular stage the important one.

“concentration can be strengthened.”

Thats all for now.

#59

Why didn’t it work for me?

The main reason is you have an anxiety disorder. Anxiety disorder is when vritti activity becomes so high that it manifests as a disorder. Then it is very difficult to meditate. First your anxiety needs to come down to a normal level before you commence meditation. In order to achieive this practice the Yama and Niyamas of Yoga.

Practicing the breathing exercises of pranayama is different to prana vidya. In prana vidya you learn the art of being able to channel prana anywhere you want, to transmit it even into the most subtle part of your body. I highly recommend you undertake a 10 day course in Vipassna meditation(just for their technique and not their dogmas) to get a direct experience of how to move prana around your body. There will come a point when you will have such control of prana you will be able to withdraw from your senses at will and shut them off and go immediately into pratyahara.

However, you do not need to wait to master prana vidya to enter into pratyahara. First of all, I assure you, you enter pratyahara every night when you go to sleep. Just before you sleep you enter pratyahara. It happens everytime your vritti activity comes down below normal. To achieive pratyahara in the day practice antar mouna that I gave in this thread on page 1. It is a very powerful practice to prepare you for meditation by taking you into pratyhara.

#60

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;33221]Waking up, yep it sounds like you’re human.

Stage 1: You become aware of your senses and how they are connecting you to the world. The eyes will be closed so you are only hearing the sound. After a while the mind will introvert.

Stage 2: Ones attention will now be in their own mind and its working. How it is reacting and what images are coming from the subconscious. This is the stage where grosser neurosis, phobias and tensions of the mind are released. You may relive past experiences and witness the eruption of suppressed desires. Keep observing until the mind becomes calm.

Stage 3: Posing and disposing of thoughts at will. You can play a little by inducing visions. You give it a thought and watch the fantasy the mind creates and then after a while you dispose of it later on at will. This will later develop into the practice of self analysis.

Stage 4: Now you simply watch the spontaneous thoughts arising from the subconscious again. The most prominent of these thoughts most be analysed and exhausted at will. When you have mastered this stage, your mind is going deeper into the subconscious.

Stage 5: At this stage your mind should be reasonably calm. Thoughts will still arise, but they will not be very strong, nor will they cause any great emotional upheavel. This will lead to the final stages of pratyhara: complete thoughlessness.

Stage 6: Begin Dharana.[/QUOTE]

These stages that you have mentioned are quite similar to what I am experiencing while practicing trataka.

The inducing of vision is the something I haven’t tried. I will surely give it a try.

Thanks.

[QUOTE=The Scales;57239]For the noobie through the practice of fixed gazes some of the various “psychic head centers” become harmonized.

Ajna is one. and at this particular stage the important one.

“concentration can be strengthened.”

Thats all for now.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the info.

I think I am getting addicted to this. I feel like doing it all the time. Its all taking me to different world altogether.

I sometimes feel like moving to a uninhabited place. And sped rest of my life their meditating. I just hate meeting people

Don’t worry, everything is under control. :smiley:

#61

These stages that you have mentioned are quite similar to what I am experiencing while practicing trataka.

trataka itself can itself become a meditation and take you to samadhi. It is different to antar mouna because trataka is a concentration exercise on a yantra, candle flame, picture or mental visualization and is only used to train the focus of the mind. Antar mouna, on the other hand, is about learning to withdraw from the senses. So it is important to only focus on senses - switching between hearing and just watching the content of the mind behind closed eyes induces the first stage of pratayhara. You will start to see your thoughts as soon as you you enter pratyahara and they will become more and more vivid as you get into deeper stages. Initially, they are just like a series of 2D snap shots, that appear and disappear randomly. Later, they will become 3D live images, that it will feel like you are living them.

#62

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;57245]trataka itself can itself become a meditation and take you to samadhi. It is different to antar mouna because trataka is a concentration exercise on a yantra, candle flame, picture or mental visualization [B]and is only used to train the focus of the mind.[/B] Antar mouna, on the other hand, is about learning to withdraw from the senses. So it is important to only focus on senses - switching between hearing and just watching the content of the mind behind closed eyes induces the first stage of pratayhara. You will start to see your thoughts as soon as you you enter pratyahara and they will become more and more vivid as you get into deeper stages. Initially, they are just like a series of 2D snap shots, that appear and disappear randomly. Later, they will become 3D live images, that it will feel like you are living them.[/QUOTE]

You are correct trataka itself [I]can[/I] become a means to meditation itself. But this is down the line for many people. Please keep these things in mind.

Also - there are more results than simply ‘Training the focus of the mind.’

#63

There is a subtle difference between ‘concentration’ and ‘dharana’ as well as between ‘meditation’ and ‘dhyana’ and finally, between ‘contemplation’ and ‘samadhi’. They are not synonyms as generally understood. But it is not just a translation issue. It has a very profound dimension.

While concentration, meditation and contemplation are skills that can be developed in external, object-centric mode, their counterparts - dharana, dhyana and samadhi - happen in a subjective mode. Though from objective to subjective mode is one sweeping flow, one has to have acquired a break-through stage of pratyahara. However, in one of the grand paradoxes of yoga, at that stage yogi’s subjective domain is all cleansed of impurities and no biases are created in perception. Hence, his/her subjective domain is absolutely ‘objective’ as is ordinarily understood.

Thus, tratak is one of the very valid practice for concentration and seen in the above context, statements of SD and the Scales can be better understood. (I guess!)

#64

Scales,

“This is a lie. At all times there is SOME effort of the mind via the will in regards to meditation.”

Then you know nothing whatsoever of meditation.

#65

[QUOTE=The Scales;57186][B]also

Let me make this perfectly clear to you so you can understand it.

Becaues thus far you clearly haven’t gotten it yet.

You are literally a child.

you have NOTHING to teach me about spiritual matters.

AT ALL. EVER.

Your knowledge is wrong.

Your an arrogant prick.

I could take you being an arrogant prick if your knowledge was right.

I can take you being an idiot if you were humble and kind.

I can’t take you being both an asshole and an idiot, and a champion of delusion.

Plus your a kid.

and a chump.

Thats why I zero in on you.[/B][/QUOTE]

Scales,

I do not consider you either to have a sincere desire for awakening, even less so a seeker of Truth. You can continue hiding behind the various masks you have created, but you should know that the function of one who is clear eyed is to discriminate betwee snakes pretending to be dragons, and dragons pretending to be snakes. Perhaps you are thinking that others will not be able to detect it, and most of the time it passes off. But when encountering one who has discovered his own eye on the forehead - you should know that he will be able to see straight through your being like an arrow. You are still in a deep sleep, although you enjoy pretending a pretension due to your own insecurities, fears, and anxieties. That may have in the past given you some temporary relief, but if you were being a bit more watchful, you would have found that it has not worked and has failed you time and time again. And yet - you continue along the same path that you have been treading. That is fine, you will continue playing the game until somehow life gives you enough experience so that you may come to your senses.

#66

[QUOTE=The Scales;57188]Perhaps if one were smarter than another, and with all variables being equal, (which is unlikely) the smarter of the two - would learn and get better faster.

Thats not to say the slower of the two couldn’t eventually be good, great, or even better - as there other factors involved.[/QUOTE]

Ok!

#67

Suhas,

“There is a subtle difference between ‘concentration’ and ‘dharana’ as well as between ‘meditation’ and 'dhyana”

You are right. Not only is there a subtle difference, but there is an enormous difference. Not only is it that most of these Sanskrit words do not have a precise translation in English, particularly dhyana, in any language there is no exact word that can capture what we are referring to. The workings of the mind are very complex, and it is impossible to state through language everything that is happening in meditation. The closest meaning to dhyana perhaps comes “meditation”, but even that is dimensions apart from what it is that is being referred to. In fact, meditation is the opposite of what dhyana is. Because the word meditation in English means either to comtemplate or to consider. If you are contemplating about love, then you can be said to be meditating about love. Amongst Christians, they have so called “meditations” upon Christ, which is not meditation at all in the sense of what is meant by dhyana in the East. Dhyana is neither consideration, nor contemplation. Consideration is an effort of the mind, contemplation is an effort of the mind, but meditation is not something that can be done as a conscious effort of the mind. You can become meditation, you can become possessed by it’s quality - but you cannot do it any more than you can see your own eyes, or hear your own ears. One can create a space for it to arise spontaneously by itself - but when it rears it’s head, it is not something that can be done.

#68

Amir if you haven’t figured it out yet.

I have credibility.

You do not.

Most see this.

If you don’t see this well then your an even bigger idiot than I imagined.

#69

From which book amir gleamed the concept ‘that meditation is without effort’ i simply do not know.

Even when the Bliss starts kicking in during samadhi with an object it still requires effort on the part of the yogin. In fact it requries more effort because the Bliss can be overwhelming. It is through effort that the yogin maintains the union. In terms of logic - if this were not so then each yogin who ever achieved samadhi with an object would still be in samadhi right now - unable to release it.

der . . .

The same utilization of will (which is effort) is also required for asamprajnata or the so called ‘seedless’ or ‘non objectional’ samadhi.

How does the scales know all this?

By treading the path of course!

At all times (however slight, however easy) there is some effort via the will required to maintain that state.

yup

#70

The teaching of no effort comes from Buddhist philosophy. It is a lazy teaching which makes people spiritually lazy. You indeed need a lot of effort. One who does not exert themselves will get nothing. Nothing is free in this world.

#71

This tread reminded me that Surya actually knows a lot of stuff. Yes, it is a good thread.

Hey, today I read this wonderful quote … it goes approximately like this: until you learn to see with the eyes of your enemies, you will never find peace.

And peace indeed is a basic requirement for meditation and spiritual advancement. So, in our search for truth and peace, we need to actually seek out those encounters where our faith, or knowledge is tested, and we must seek to unite what seems parted. Kahlil Gibran uses a wonderful methaphore for various traditions, religions. Those , he says, are the fingers of God’s open hand, pointing to various locations, people, yet they still belong to the same hand.
Indeed, often, even on the level of individual disciples, what is good for one, is not timely, hence, wrong for the other.