I'm an ethical Christian

Spirituality Religion
#181

I could not have articulated better than TeeA regarding all the bashing. Thank you TeeA for writing what the vast majority of believe and think.

The problem is the way to change that which is wrong is not through playing the victim role or debating which religion is superior or who is more intelligent. This has historically never accomplished any goal. The only way to affect real, sustainable change is through dialogue. A dialogue that adheres to ahimsa and promotes a deep understanding (compassion) on all sides. When someone tells you you are wrong you will naturally defend your view even if it is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. You, at that precise moment, cease to listen. Dialogue is stopped, and all we do is argue with no one being the winner. Instead of saying one is superior or that a religion is superior, show through example. Allow those who are listening to absorb what you are saying , allowing it to resonate. You may be surprised at the results! I’ve said this before and I’ll say this again, “The vast majority of people on this forum are not anti-Hindu and have never eluded they were.”

Yes, SD and Nietzsche, my thinking is different then yours on many matters. But I do share in your belief that Hinduism is great and wonderful. How can it not be? But you don’t help others to see this beauty by degrading other religions and wanting them wiped off the face of the earth. Each religion has pieces of it that are beautiful and can be shared. But when told that they are wrong, believing as devoutly as you, they will staunchly defend. And where does this take us? Right where we are now in the religious section. Division, bigoted remarks, ignore lists and such.

All sides have said things they’ve shouldn’t. I called SD arrogant. I do apologize to you SD for that. It was unkind of me. Personal opinions of people should not come into play. We all need to stop, reflect and be honest about what our intentions are. We all have so much to learn from each other. That’s what this forum is about. Not about who wins.

#182

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;49607]I’m going to get myself Fixed ;)[/QUOTE]
WTF :o

#183

[QUOTE=kareng;49567]Nahhhh Its the Catholic hell I think apparently you toss and in turn in everlasting flames…bit like the terminator before he finally disappears in the boiling furnace gloopy stuff…thrashing around, all your previous lives would be taking a turn to thrash around if they were a Hindu in this Cathoilic hell[/QUOTE]

No, this is not what “Purgatory” is. Purgatory is part of Heaven. Purgatory is a process by which the soul is cleansed of what remains of selfishness and rebellion agains God, before entering into the fullness of the enjoyment of Heaven.

#184

[QUOTE=thomas;49640]No, this is not what “Purgatory” is. Purgatory is part of Heaven. Purgatory is a process by which the soul is cleansed of what remains of selfishness and rebellion agains God, before entering into the fullness of the enjoyment of Heaven.[/QUOTE]

Yes but isn’t there some thrashing in flames…this is what a Catholic told me…he used to say frequently he would burn in the flames of Purgatory…poor thing is no longer with us for me to tell him…he spent all those years thinking it was a bad place to go!!!

#185

That’s a metaphor used by some. It’s like gold that is not yet purified and goes through a process until there is no longer anything left but gold.

But to make it to Purgatory is to make it to Heaven, though Purgatory can be avoided by striving to live a holy life.

#186

[QUOTE=thomas;49642]That’s a metaphor used by some. It’s like gold that is not yet purified and goes through a process until there is no longer anything left but gold.

But to make it to Purgatory is to make it to Heaven, though Purgatory can be avoided by striving to live a holy life.[/QUOTE]

What happens in there? Do they describe how you are purified?

#187

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;49596]That is like Rosa park or Martin Luther king saying, “There is going to be bias, discrimination and supermacy. It is the nature of the world we live in” And then doing nothing about it.

I can see why you say that because you accept it is natural because of your religion. This is why I see your religion as the biggest obstacle to progress in the world.[/QUOTE]

When you take two lines out of context, you can do much mischief with their meaning and intent.

What religion does she profess, btw?

#188

[QUOTE=Nietzsche;49578]Well if you advocate that we Hindus should take the destruction of our culture lightly, then you are certainly biased against us and our cause. Remember: “I guess I should have realized that few members of a race that has oppressed another race can understand or appreciate the deep groans and passionate yearnings of those that have been oppressed and still fewer have the vision to see that injustice must be rooted out by strong, persistent, and determined action.” - Martin Luther King .[/QUOTE]

I do not advocate that you take it lightly. Rather I advocate that there are better options than the ones that you are using. I am moved and joyous at the protest we see rocking the Arab world now. It is wonderful to see people who are fed up with their leaders and confident in their own persons to state so. As a Christian Brethren, peaceful demonstrations have always been a part of our denomination. We were tarred and feathered, tortured, and killed by the Catholics and Lutherans during the Reformation for our peaceful beliefs. (We also refused to follow the doctrine set forth by those denominations) During the Civil, War and WWI we were targets of government oppression due to our non violence(and anti war stances). Today, thanks to those who suffered before us we are legally protected under the law from being drafted in to active military service, and many of our other Anabaptist brethren are as well. Did we go to war over this? No! Did we engage in slamming the other side? No! Rather we used dialogue, peaceful protesting, and lived a life that reflected our peaceful views. (Leading by example is always the best)

[QUOTE=Nietzsche;49578]Bearing abuse consistently does nothing to solve the problem. We Hindus have done that for a millennia and now our country is only just beginning to recover from the damage. Even then, there is still great disunity and instability in India, all thanks to the British. .[/QUOTE]

Agreed, bearing abuse consistently does not solve the problem. But neither does complaining, flaming the opposition or pointing the finger. This is not mean I believe that the British are not responsible for many of the problems in India rather that at some point there needs to be action taken by the victims in question. It is the same as women. At what point do “I” as a women enable someone to “treat” me as a victim? It is when I blame my actions and responses on those who hurt me in the first place. If I actively work to refuse to let it bother me, then I am no longer a victim, because I no longer enable their opinions or actions to affect me or my life.

[QUOTE=Nietzsche;49578]As MLK said, such injustices should be rooted out by strong persistent and determined action. As Gandhi did. As MLK did with the Civil Rights Movement. As the next generation of Hindus will do by raising awareness and understanding. As should you by doing the same for women. .[/QUOTE]
Good, but not at the expense of attacking the opposition. (whether physically or rhetorically) Both MLK and Gandhi spoke out against the injustices being caused to them, they did not point fingers and say “They are biased” or “Their religion is the biggest obstacle to progress in the world” It is better not to blame, but rather to rise above the pain and injustice caused to something much better. If all humans strived for this mark, the world would be a much better place to live.

[QUOTE=Nietzsche;49578]Of course life isn’t fair. But should you take as an excuse to wallow in your suffering and do nothing about it? There is always the potential for change. There is always the potential for perfection. [/QUOTE]
You misinterpreted,. I did not say to wallow in suffering.

[QUOTE=Nietzsche;49578]
As for whether the discrimination of women is the worst kind in the world, it depends on your perspective. Physically and socially, the discrimination against women is indeed the worst. Then again, what do you define as discrimination? Anything that doesn’t follow the Western secular humanistic ideology? I very much admire the women rights cause but at times, there needs to be objective limits with respect to cultural contexts. For example, there are just as many Muslim women who take pride in wearing Burqas as there are those who note the economic and political squalor in their countries and juxtapose it with the mitigation of adversity they feel will come with the implementation of democratic ideals in their daily lives. I know, since I grew up in a city in India with a very large Muslim population (almost 50% at the time). [/QUOTE]

I feel discrimination takes place when the person in question is treated unfairly due to a basis of prejudice. So if a woman decides to wear a burqa so be it. But if she is required to as a way to undermine her personal freedoms, then no. That would be discrimination. To deny someone any freedom due to gender, race, age, disabilities, or nationality is absurd.

[QUOTE=Nietzsche;49578]
Religiously? It is the Hindus that are discriminated against the most. Hinduism is the antipode of Abrahamic religions. Hinduism is the last bastion of organized paganism, polytheism, idolatry, and etc, left in the world today. [/QUOTE]

Most of the Christians I associate with would not consider your beliefs as paganism, polytheism or idolatry. In fact many of them would enjoy open, peaceful dialogue as a way to learn and love a large portion of mankind.

[QUOTE=Nietzsche;49578]
Western media and academia denigrates Hinduism on a daily basis; do you realize that the history taught in Indian schools today was written by Christian Euro centrists who sought to divide India and undermine its religion and culture? [/QUOTE]

This I did not realize, but if that is the case then it is not the Christian Euro centrist that you should be upset with, but those that run the school systems. After all they are the ones who have the final say in curriculum and texts. As for the face of Western media, that is changing form even as we speak. No longer is the media run only by large companies that censor information before it hit’s the newsstands. We have blogs, twitter, and forums. And while it may be self gratifying in the short term to flame or discredit those of the western media/mind set; it only in the end makes people of a more sober mind want to ignore you. Rather it is better to point out when the facts are wrong, and not attack even when you are attacked yourself. By not responding, you add credibility to your argument and foolishness to theirs.
“Silence is one of the hardest arguments to refute.” Josh Billings

Nameste
TeeA

#189

As a Christian Brethren, peaceful demonstrations have always been a part of our denomination. We were tarred and feathered, tortured, and killed by the Catholics and Lutherans during the Reformation for our peaceful beliefs.

Could you give some more information about this? I’ve never heard of it. What peaceful beliefs were “you” torturted and killed over?

#190

Much of the historic Roman Catholic and Protestant literature has represented the Anabaptists as groups who preached false doctrine and led people into apostasy. That negative historiography remained popular for about four centuries. The Roman Catholics and Protestants alike persecuted the Anabaptists, resorted to torture and other types of physical abuse, in attempts to curb the growth of the movement. The Protestants under Zwingli were the first to persecute the Anabaptists. Felix Manz became the first martyr in 1527. The Anabaptists were the most persecuted religion sect throughout the Catholic Reformation. They were mainly persecuted because they broke away from the Catholic Church and questioned many of the main Catholic beliefs.

On May 20, 1527, Roman Catholic authorities executed Michael Sattler. King Ferdinand declared drowning (called the third baptism) "the best antidote to Anabaptism". The Tudor regime, even those that were Protestant (Edward VI of England and Elizabeth I of England) persecuted Anabaptists as they were deemed too radical and therefore a danger to religious stability. The persecution of Anabaptists was condoned by ancient laws of Theodosius I and Justinian I that were passed against the Donatists which decreed the death penalty for any who practiced rebaptism.

Thieleman J. van Braght's Martyrs Mirror describes the persecution and execution of thousands of Anabaptists, such as Dirk Willems, in Austria, Belgium, Germany, the Netherlands, Switzerland, and other parts of Europe between 1525 and 1660. Continuing persecution in Europe was largely responsible for the mass immigrations to North America by Amish, Hutterites, and Mennonites.

#191

The Church of the Brethren is a Christian denomination (not to be confused with the Plymouth Brethren) originating from the Schwarzenau Brethren (German: "Schwarzenauer Neut?ufer" or "Schwarzenau New Baptists") organized in 1708 by eight persons led by Alexander Mack, in Schwarzenau, Bad Berleburg, Germany. The Brethren movement began as a melding of Radical Pietist and Anabaptist ideas during the Protestant Reformation. The first of its churches in the United States was established in 1723. These church bodies became commonly known as Dunkers and more formally as German Baptist Brethren. The denomination holds the New Testament as its only creed. Historically the church has taken a strong stance for non-resistance or pacifism. Distinctive practices include believers baptism by trine immersion; a threefold love feast consisting of feet washing, a fellowship meal, and communion; anointing for healing; and the holy kiss.

#192

But as for the first organized congregation of Swiss brethren or Mennonites (that at Zurich in 1525) it is known that the leaders and at least some of the members had formerly been Catholics. The same is true also of Menno Simons and some of his coworkers in Holland. As to their leading tenets of faith, they were similar to the faith of the Novatians, Waldenses, and other evangelical bodies which had existed before them. Among the more prominent issues which brought upon them the wrath and persecution of the state churches, both Catholics and Protestants, were their rejection of infant baptism, their insistence upon a freedom of conscience, [B]their refusal to have any part in carnal warfare, [/B]their discipline requiring faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and repentance for sin as requisites for baptism and a holy life as a requisite for continued fellowship, their zeal in not only contending for the tenets of faith which they espoused but also in turning the light of truth upon the shortcomings of their opponents, and their contending for a complete separation of Church and State.

http://www.anabaptists.org/history/mennohist.html

#193

Since I am a Catholic, and since you say that “we” were tortured, etc. by the Catholics, does that mean you consider me to be your torturer?

So the Church persecuted your denomination specifically because of pacifism?

Your church has no place for a just war or self defense?

Entire households were baptized in the New Testament. You are certain that that would not have included infants?

Is your church connected to the Mennonite Church? I used to attend Menonite services. I chose Catholicism as an adult, because I came to believe in the Sacraments, especially in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and the rest fell into place. But I am tolerant of all Christian faiths, and see the good there as well as in other religions, though I do believe in Catholicism subsists the fullness of the truth that God wishes to reveal to earthly man, in spite of the fact that not all Catholics are perfect.

#194

No. That would be UnChristian to hold you responsible for someone else's actions. The reference is a historical one about an example on how peaceful non violent activism can bring change.

Not just pacifism but for many other reasons. But the pacifism relates to the discrimination done by the American government during the American Civil War and WWI.
There is no place for a just war or self defense. As Christ said we should turn the other cheek when someone strikes us. A great example of this grace is this.

Explain to me what justification we would get from killing this man (if he had not shot himself). It is not our place to judge, rather it is God's. It would serve no purpose for us but to futher create more pain.

That does not however mean that we can not peacefully protest or speak out against the autrocities that occur in this world.

I really don't think the point matters now, considering that the majority of Brethren do not argue which denomination is right or wrong.
Rather we choose to live lives that are a reflection of what Christ is, and not concern ourselves with who is right and who is wrong. Hence the statement "NO creed but Christ"

[QUOTE=thomas;49698]
Is your church connected to the Mennonite Church? I used to attend Menonite services. I chose Catholicism as an adult, because I came to believe in the Sacraments, especially in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and the rest fell into place. But I am tolerant of all Christian faiths, and see the good there as well as in other religions, though I do believe in Catholicism subsists the fullness of the truth that God wishes to reveal to earthly man, in spite of the fact that not all Catholics are perfect.[/QUOTE]
We are not in a modern sense, but are in an historical sense. We are cousins in the same line. I don't agree that Catholicism subsists the fullnes of the truth that God wishes to reveal to earthly man. Rather I see it as an institution of reglious governement. A church rather than a way of life. A standard way of living life rather than an example of how to live that life. While there is nothing wrong with guidelines, at a point they can be too bureocratic and in the end miss the point. I believe this is where some but not all Catholics fail. However for some people, this type of standard way (spelled out to the line) is what they feel they need for salvation. I will never condemn them for it. For others like Muslims, Jews and other Christians, their religions are what they need to attain salvation.
Who am I to judge which way is right or wrong?

As a parent I can't teach my children the same lesson in the same manner. What if God as the father of all understands this best.

#195

You use the word “Brethern.” Actually, the Church I attended was called the “Brethern in Christ Church.” There were two such churches near where I lived in Pennsylvania. There were also a lot of Mennonites in the area, and at that time I considered them all to be the same, especially since the women wore the same kind of white bonnets, not that that’s a good way to discern a church’s doctrines and beliefs, but I didn’t know anything about that at the time.

I’m sorry you have such a superficial view of the Catholic Church, though I don’t blame you, since I once thought the same, and worse.

Do you do yoga? It’s really hard for me to picture one of the Brethern in Christ ladies doing yoga…

#196

Brethern in Christ are not the same as Church of the Brethern or as Brethern Church…while the all have the same words in the name they are all different from each other. I am referring to the Church of the Brethern.

Also I just would like to clarify just in case, that I don’t have a negative view of the Catholic Church. In fact my sister and her husband are both Catholic. It is what they choose to believe. I just chose something different. And I am completely fine with that.

Oh and no white bonnet here. They are not required; however if I am free to wear one if I so choose.

#197

I do have one question though? Why does the Catholic church view contraceptives as sinful? I would think that they would hope a woman would use those before having an abortion.

#198

The Catholic Church sees contraception as the gateway to abortion. I believe it was when Christianity gave into the contraceptive culture, that that is when the floodgates of elective abortions opened, since contraception turned the reproductive act into mostly fun and games, and God forbid, a baby would ruin all that, so abortion became a form of back-up contraception.

Besides that, contraception robs the marital act of its fullness. Does it seem normal and natural for a man or a woman to be wearing pieces of rubber to try to thwart the completion of the act? Or even worse–using drugs, or mutilation of the organs via vasectomy or tubal ligation. It reduces the marital act to one of “mutual masturbation,” to put it crudely, though imho, accurately.

Anyway, if you want the official reasoning of the Church, it’s in the catechism, or I could find it for you.

#199

Yes, SD and Nietzsche, my thinking is different then yours on many matters. But I do share in your belief that Hinduism is great and wonderful. How can it not be? But you don’t help others to see this beauty by degrading other religions and wanting them wiped off the face of the earth. Each religion has pieces of it that are beautiful and can be shared. But when told that they are wrong, believing as devoutly as you, they will staunchly defend. And where does this take us? Right where we are now in the religious section. Division, bigoted remarks, ignore lists and such.

It is simply impossibe to talk about any matter(especially religion) without conflict. This is because everybody has a different view. If you were arguing that after death we ceast to exist forever and I am arguing after death we continue to exist, how on earth can there not be conflict? One of us has got to be right and one of us has got to be wrong. We cannot both be right and both be wrong.

#200

SD,

I do understand your thinking. But in the end, what does it really prove? Perhaps that you were right? How does this move you closer to enlightenment? How can it because what you’ve done by staunchly arguing is watering the seeds of Karma. Just something to ponder.