Religious pluralism vs Religious intolerance

Spirituality Religion
#65

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;53632]We have certainly made an impact, and that is because of how passionately we argue and defend our points. But if you think this caused people on this forum and lurkers to re-evaluate their beliefs, you are mistaken. These changes do not come overnight, and they certainly do not come by being militant and billigerant against people and calling them white supremists and Christian fundamentalists - all that does is put people on the defensive and alienate them further from whatever you represent.

Imagine if Swami Vivekananda in his opening speech in Chicago said, “Sisters and brothers of America, I have come to save you from the curse of these Abrahamic religions which are feeding you false doctrines and techniques and leaving you in ignorance” Before he would have began his sentences on Hinduism, he would have lost all of his audience. If you want to make people listen to what you have to say, you do so by not offending them. If they will accept Hindu teachings, only if Vivekananda says, “All religions are paths leading to the same summit, some winding, some narrow, some straight” then that is the best course of action to take.

There is also something called spiritual diplomacy. If your purpose is simply to get the message across, you can do so even by using slight deceptions. Like even accepting Jesus as an Avatar. This was Yogananda’s approach.

The Hindu gurus were so succesful in bringing the teachings of Hinduism into the West, that the West itself is shocked when did it start becoming Hindu. They did it with the message of religious pluralrism. Today, mantra jaap meditation is being done in Churches. Evangalists are scratching their head and asking, “How did this happen!”

Again, India’s development or lack of development made no difference to the proliferation of Yoga, meditation, Vedanta, Samkhya, Indian philosophy, Ayurveda and Hindu gurus in the West. The average Westerner does not think, “Oh, this is from a poor country” In fact what most Westerners think about Eastern disciplines is that they have backing by science.[/QUOTE]

No, I did not say that we had caused them to re-evaluate their beliefs. I said we made an impact that may or may not sprout change with time (most likely no change, but atleast these people are now aware of the larger picture regarding Hinduism, India, Indians, Hindus, etc).

Spiritual diplomacy…ugh…a contradiction. Sometimes, I truly feel there is no objective morality or reality in this world…

Jesus? Ewww. I personally would not want to associate myself with some non-existent Jewish carpenter who spouted clich?d and trite phrases with every breath (of course the uncivilized peoples in the region were astounded as they were by what the they regarded as “civilization”).

In America, they receive a largely negative and skeptical imagine. These teachings are seen as nothing more than mythology and metaphysics with no real application in real life. Sure our teachings may have made small advances with time, but the majority of America’s populace is woefully ignorant. The changes I am seeing in America these days are indicating that conservatism and ignorance is rising once again…which is to be expected due to the declining economy. Even my U.S history teacher confirmed this.

#66

No, I did not say that we had caused them to re-evaluate their beliefs. I said we made an impact that may or may not sprout change with time (most likely no change, but atleast these people are now aware of the larger picture regarding Hinduism, India, Indians, Hindus, etc).

Those who previously had negative views on Hinduism/India, will have had their views reinforced. People who were previously neutral, will have new negative views. You cannot expect people to listen, while you go around labelling everybody a white supremist and Christian fundamentalist who is oppressing you. This basic human frailty, if you attack another human being, their receptiveness to what you say will diminish and they will go on the offensive. Hence why Swami Vivekananda, or basically none of the Hindu gurus that went to the West, never condemned the native religions. Their approach worked wonders as they were instrumental in bringing many revolutions in the West.

Spiritual diplomacy…ugh…a contradiction. Sometimes, I truly feel there is no objective morality or reality in this world…

You do realise that Krishna was a diplomat right and Krishna is known as one of the most devious people in Indian history? In one of the Puranas Krishna is even called the deceiver of all deceivers. Krishna got the Pandavas to tell many lies, he himself lied. The aim was to get the final objective.

Here our objective is not to destroy Abrahamic religions, but to establish a dharmic world. If this means accept a few lies like accepting secret and esoteric knowledge of Western occultism and paganism as equal traditions to Yoga and Tantra, or the positive acceptance of Jesus, Moses and Mohammed, then sobeit. As long as the objective is met.

Jesus? Ewww. I personally would not want to associate myself with some non-existent Jewish carpenter who spouted clich?d and trite phrases with every breath (of course the uncivilized peoples in the region were astounded as they were by what the they regarded as “civilization”).

You are a young teenager in highschool. Swami Yogananda Paramhansa, who did in fact accept Jesus as an avatar and completely reinterpreted the gospels to give them a dharmic slant, was a highly advanced spiritual master from a recognised and long lineage of kriya yogis who was a massive success in the West and widely published. Why did he accept Jesus, but you cannot? Do you know Ramakrishna accepted Jesus and Mohammed?

In America, they receive a largely negative and skeptical imagine. These teachings are seen as nothing more than mythology and metaphysics with no real application in real life. Sure our teachings may have made small advances with time, but the majority of America’s populace is woefully ignorant.

Yep, spirituality the worldover gets treated with skepticism and negative views. In India it is no more favourable. The fact of the matter is Yoga, Ayurveda, Vedanta has succesfully penetrated deep into the West, despite mainstream disapproval. In the West some 20 million Americans practice Yoga. They are not fussed whether it comes from India or China.
So your point that first India needs to develop for these things to get acceptance is in error, these things have been flourishing in the West even before India’s economic boom began. The credit does to the work of Hindu gurus in the West.

#67

[QUOTE=The Scales;53639][B][I]The first duty of a revolutionary is to get away with it.

  • Abby Hoffman[/I][/B]

:slight_smile:

Now Mr. Fred can we be nice to each other? We are after all in this thing together.

If you do something I don’t like I will tell you about it as I have done. If I do something you don’t like - then screw off - errr I mean let me know.[/QUOTE]

No. We are not in this thing together. One is Indian, the other is not. One in PC, the other is not. One is biased towards Hinduism, the other is not.

#68

[QUOTE=Nietzsche;53647]No. We are not in this thing together. One is Indian, the other is not. One in PC, the other is not. One is biased towards Hinduism, the other is not.[/QUOTE]

I bet I was hindu before you! Shaivite. Actually. And I yes I really lived there! Not that I remember - but I know.

Nor am I biased against any religion. Not a one. I have no religion - yet - they are all mine.

My favorite though I must admit is buddhism so I guess there could be a little bias. I don’t follow anyone particluar system per se or consider myself Buddhist or hindu or yahoo.

In terms of “being in this thing together.” I meant as humanity on this world all comming from the same place - originally.

You dig?

Now that the air is cleared are you still my Foe?

#69

If it was not for the small white lies Yogananda told, you would not have this today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFqY_lSU6SU&feature=related

Assembly starts at approx 1 min

#70

I was watching the school play on youtube to the end, and I noticed something very pertinent to our discussion. When Yogananda first landed in America, he was called a heathen, Yogananda did not respond in kind by saying, “You call me heathen, your demonic religion is responsible for the genocide of my people, you white supremist ignorant people, curse be upon you” he responded instead, “You call me heathen, but in India they call you heathen, so the intolerance is about 50/50, I have come not with a message of intolerance, but a message of mutual love” etc (I am paraphrasing, but this was the general effect) by the end he had won over his audience. This small victory lead to Yogananda’s popularity rising in America and in no time he was giving discourses to packed audiences of 5000+ people with housefull signs. His audience consisted of wealthy, educated men. He even had pastors in his audience.

#71

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;53659]I was watching the school play on youtube to the end, and I noticed something very pertinent to our discussion. When Yogananda first landed in America, he was called a heathen, Yogananda did not respond in kind by saying, “You call me heathen, your demonic religion is responsible for the genocide of my people, you white supremist ignorant people, curse be upon you” he responded instead, “You call me heathen, but in India they call you heathen, so the intolerance is about 50/50, I have come not with a message of intolerance, but a message of mutual love” etc (I am paraphrasing, but this was the general effect) by the end he had won over his audience. This small victory lead to Yogananda’s popularity rising in America and in no time he was giving discourses to packed audiences of 5000+ people with housefull signs. His audience consisted of wealthy, educated men. He even had pastors in his audience.[/QUOTE]

Ding!

#72

[QUOTE=Nietzsche;53487]Fix’d.[/QUOTE]
you’re so lame!! :stuck_out_tongue: i’m not even white.

#73

On second thoughts, it is perhaps a bit harsh to say that Yogananda lied, rather Yogananda twisted the truth slightly. He expressed from the outset he is not in the West to Indianize them, but rather to show them how to spiritualize their own culture. So he hand-picked verses from the gospels which would have a spiritual slant, bought attention to the West’s own spiritual traditions like the Christian gnostics, and over emphasised that aspect(at the behest of orthodoxy) and reinterpreted Jesus as a spiritual master, who he even claimed may have visited India to get his tutelage. Somehow he was able to read in the gospels everything from Yoga to reincarnation.

Yogananda certainly left his mark, as his reconstruction of Christianity is very popular in the new-age world today. It is because of him you will have white people say the name of Jesus, Krishna and Buddha in the same vain. In a way he demoted Jesus from the exclusive and only god status, to just another god-realised master. Although he said he was not indianizing his followers, that is exactly what ended up happening. His followers often wear Indian clothes, sing Indian classical music, are very familiar with the epic literature, and their entire understanding of reality, soul, mind, god is Vedic.

#74

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;53713]On second thoughts, it is perhaps a bit harsh to say that Yogananda lied, rather Yogananda twisted the truth slightly. He expressed from the outset he is not in the West to Indianize them, but rather to show them how to spiritualize their own culture. So he hand-picked verses from the gospels which would have a spiritual slant, bought attention to the West’s own spiritual traditions like the Christian gnostics, and over emphasised that aspect(at the behest of orthodoxy) and reinterpreted Jesus as a spiritual master, who he even claimed may have visited India to get his tutelage. Somehow he was able to read in the gospels everything from Yoga to reincarnation.

Yogananda certainly left his mark, as his reconstruction of Christianity is very popular in the new-age world today. It is because of him you will have white people say the name of Jesus, Krishna and Buddha in the same vain. In a way he demoted Jesus from the exclusive and only god status, to just another god-realised master. Although he said he was not indianizing his followers, that is exactly what ended up happening. His followers often wear Indian clothes, sing Indian classical music, are very familiar with the epic literature, and their entire understanding of reality, soul, mind, god is Vedic.[/QUOTE]

Mukunda was, as I see it, some time ago sewing the little seeds of truth.
His interpretation of christianity is - pretty much - as I see it.

So to me - under that light - the christian tradition stands.

I do realize that there are many christians that don’t quite see it that way.

So we talk.

#75

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;53646]Those who previously had negative views on Hinduism/India, will have had their views reinforced. People who were previously neutral, will have new negative views. You cannot expect people to listen, while you go around labelling everybody a white supremist and Christian fundamentalist who is oppressing you. This basic human frailty, if you attack another human being, their receptiveness to what you say will diminish and they will go on the offensive. Hence why Swami Vivekananda, or basically none of the Hindu gurus that went to the West, never condemned the native religions. Their approach worked wonders as they were instrumental in bringing many revolutions in the West.

You do realise that Krishna was a diplomat right and Krishna is known as one of the most devious people in Indian history? In one of the Puranas Krishna is even called the deceiver of all deceivers. Krishna got the Pandavas to tell many lies, he himself lied. The aim was to get the final objective.

Here our objective is not to destroy Abrahamic religions, but to establish a dharmic world. If this means accept a few lies like accepting secret and esoteric knowledge of Western occultism and paganism as equal traditions to Yoga and Tantra, or the positive acceptance of Jesus, Moses and Mohammed, then sobeit. As long as the objective is met.

You are a young teenager in highschool. Swami Yogananda Paramhansa, who did in fact accept Jesus as an avatar and completely reinterpreted the gospels to give them a dharmic slant, was a highly advanced spiritual master from a recognised and long lineage of kriya yogis who was a massive success in the West and widely published. Why did he accept Jesus, but you cannot? Do you know Ramakrishna accepted Jesus and Mohammed?

Yep, spirituality the worldover gets treated with skepticism and negative views. In India it is no more favourable. The fact of the matter is Yoga, Ayurveda, Vedanta has succesfully penetrated deep into the West, despite mainstream disapproval. In the West some 20 million Americans practice Yoga. They are not fussed whether it comes from India or China.
So your point that first India needs to develop for these things to get acceptance is in error, these things have been flourishing in the West even before India’s economic boom began. The credit does to the work of Hindu gurus in the West.[/QUOTE]

And what has sweet-talk with those who oppress us accomplished for, say, the last 1000+ years?

Yes, I knew this.

I must respectfully disagree. The formation of a world religion is not possible in this era of materialism, superficial perceptions, ignorance, and so forth. Maslow’s philosophy you see.

I do not accept Jesus because he was an egotistical and non-existent man who spouted trite and clich?d phrases with every breath. The barbaric semitic shepherds/people he preached to thought this was “civilization” and “morality.”

I do not accept Mohammed because he was nothing but a mass murderer of kaffirs. Where else do you think Muslims throughout the ages have got the inspiration to conquer and murder us Indians and other infidels?

Once again, most of the practitioners of Yoga here are woefully ignorant of Hinduism and spirituality. They prefer to do it as an exercise. I do not deny the extent to which Yoga has penetrated the West, but I do know that it is a rather superficial one.

For example, I had several friends in school whose parents ran Yoga classes at the mall. Quite frankly, they were surprisingly ignorant of Yoga and Hinduism. Some of them even had your typical Christian biases.

#76

[QUOTE=The Scales;53655]I bet I was hindu before you! Shaivite. Actually. And I yes I really lived there! Not that I remember - but I know.

Nor am I biased against any religion. Not a one. I have no religion - yet - they are all mine.

My favorite though I must admit is buddhism so I guess there could be a little bias. I don’t follow anyone particluar system per se or consider myself Buddhist or hindu or yahoo.

In terms of “being in this thing together.” I meant as humanity on this world all comming from the same place - originally.

You dig?

Now that the air is cleared are you still my Foe?[/QUOTE]

Everyone has discriminatory attitudes towards…well, anything really. Its just way things work. I have my share of anti-Christianity/Islam biases and so does SD.

No, I suppose not. I guess I can take you off my ignore list. No hard feelings then?

By the way, I always respected you for your knowledge despite our differences in opinion. Same goes for SD, Yulaw, and others in this forum.

#77

[QUOTE=The Scales;53724]Mukunda was, as I see it, some time ago sewing the little seeds of truth.
His interpretation of christianity is - pretty much - as I see it.

So to me - under that light - the christian tradition stands.

I do realize that there are many christians that don’t quite see it that way.

So we talk.[/QUOTE]

Many? More like MOST Christians. And they do not interpret their doctrines in such a manner. Why should they when the verses to go out and convert and subjugate heathens and their idol-culture are right in front of their eyes?

The Christian tradition, as we have known it for 2k years, does not and should not stand. At the very least, it should be reformed. Massively. However, I have come to see that such a thing is not possible when the West is at the pinnacle of its superiority. They derive their strength and confidence from their material prosperity and its resultant arrogance. Once it falls, then they will hopefully realize the error of their ways (or just go back to the Christianity characteristic of the Dark Ages).

#78

[QUOTE=vata07;53685]you’re so lame!! :stuck_out_tongue: i’m not even white.[/QUOTE]

You do realize that I was being cynical and satirical, right? I already explained this a few posts back.

If you think I am “lame” when you are the one who is posting nothing but sentences comprised of words (not even exceeding 5 letters) calculated to ridicule me…

#79

[QUOTE=Nietzsche;53747]Many? More like MOST Christians. And they do not interpret their doctrines in such a manner. Why should they when the verses to go out and convert and subjugate heathens and their idol-culture are right in front of their eyes?

The Christian tradition, as we have known it for 2k years, does not and should not stand. At the very least, it should be reformed. Massively. However, I have come to see that such a thing is not possible when the West is at the pinnacle of its superiority. They derive their strength and confidence from their material prosperity and its resultant arrogance. Once it falls, then they will hopefully realize the error of their ways (or just go back to the Christianity characteristic of the Dark Ages).[/QUOTE]

Need to make some corrections:

“and the arrogance it induces.”

“they will hopefully…”

#80

I must respectfully disagree. The formation of a world religion is not possible in this era of materialism, superficial perceptions, ignorance, and so forth. Maslow’s philosophy you see.

But that is what is happening, the new age revolution of spirituality/yoga/paganism is a fact of our times. The people instrumental in this were the countless Hindu gurus that went West, but not a single one condemned the native religions. It is due to their efforts today, I can sit and talk about Vedic stuff with white people.

A phenomenona you are missing out is called globalization. We are not living in times like before where it would would months or days to get a message across to the other side of the world, we are living in an age of communications, where the world has become a global village. I am talking to you thousands of miles away pretty much live. It is impossible for any culture to remain the same in todays world, every culture is going to get affected by other cultures. At this moment that dominant culture driving globalization is Westernization. This is simply a fact of our times. Hindus guru’s have started a new age movement there, which has over the decades caused many revolutions here. What Hindus need to is spiritualise this new-age movement as much as they can(like Yogananda) by taking part in it and mixing with Vedic culture.

The negative approach of destorying Abrahamic religions is not going to work. This will only alienate people. All religions are finding it hard to resist the new-age religious movement, because new-age religion is made out of many religions, many traditions. They are only one, and new-age is all of them. This gives new-age religion more currency amongst the current generation. As soon as somebody goes around talking about one religion, hey presto, you’ve alienated everybody and lost your audience.

Whatever meets your aim of establishing dharma on this planet use it, even if it means accepting new-age teachings like Jesus, Mohammed, Krishna and Buddha are all masters and avatars, Yoga science is an ageless wisdom that humanity once practiced. Go with the flow and allow dharma to come back.

#81

But that is the point, we need to plant the seed in Christianity that another interpretation of their doctrines is possible i.e., a dharmic one. This will cause division in Christianity, and weaken the orthodoxy. It is already happening as we speak, mantra jaap meditation is being practiced within official Churches. Most people defending Yoga from Church authorities are Christians. The official Church organization feels so threatened, it has had to start its own Christian Yoga.

Our Hindu gurus were very clever people. Follow their example.

#82

[QUOTE=Nietzsche;53746]Everyone has discriminatory attitudes towards…well, anything really. Its just way things work. I have my share of anti-Christianity/Islam biases and so does SD.

No, I suppose not. I guess I can take you off my ignore list. No hard feelings then?

By the way, I always respected you for your knowledge despite our differences in opinion. Same goes for SD, Yulaw, and others in this forum.

[/QUOTE]

Hard Feelings? No. of course not.

I don’t think we really differ all that much in opinion - i’m just kinda more on the fence - in the middle - I think.

Sometimes I find it peaceful here.

Wisdom arises from experience. In particular it arises from sadhana. < REMINDER. :cool:

I have some work to do so I will join back in this thread later sometime.

#83

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;53755]But that is what is happening, the new age revolution of spirituality/yoga/paganism is a fact of our times. The people instrumental in this were the countless Hindu gurus that went West, but not a single one condemned the native religions. It is due to their efforts today, I can sit and talk about Vedic stuff with white people.

A phenomenona you are missing out is called globalization. We are not living in times like before where it would would months or days to get a message across to the other side of the world, we are living in an age of communications, where the world has become a global village. I am talking to you thousands of miles away pretty much live. It is impossible for any culture to remain the same in todays world, every culture is going to get affected by other cultures. At this moment that dominant culture driving globalization is Westernization. This is simply a fact of our times. Hindus guru’s have started a new age movement there, which has over the decades caused many revolutions here. What Hindus need to is spiritualise this new-age movement as much as they can(like Yogananda) by taking part in it and mixing with Vedic culture.

The negative approach of destorying Abrahamic religions is not going to work. This will only alienate people. All religions are finding it hard to resist the new-age religious movement, because new-age religion is made out of many religions, many traditions. They are only one, and new-age is all of them. This gives new-age religion more currency amongst the current generation. As soon as somebody goes around talking about one religion, hey presto, you’ve alienated everybody and lost your audience.

Whatever meets your aim of establishing dharma on this planet use it, even if it means accepting new-age teachings like Jesus, Mohammed, Krishna and Buddha are all masters and avatars, Yoga science is an ageless wisdom that humanity once practiced. Go with the flow and allow dharma to come back.[/QUOTE]

When I say “destroying Abrahamic religions,” I mean it in the sense of organized religion. Christianity and Islam as organized religions are far too dogmatic, intolerant, oppressive, illogical, and paradoxical to do any sort of mixing with any other religion.

It is not possible to mix these religions with Dharmic ones. The result will be chaos.

Now if you are referring to “taking the best of any religion” as “taking the valid, non-doctrinal, and universally applicable and palpable parts and creating an amalgam,” then that just might work. However, this isn’t the right time to do it. There needs to be enough dissension within the Abrahamics, enough sectionalism and strife, for that to succeed. Most Christians in the world today are far too doctrinal/dogmatic to start accepting Vedic additions.

#84

And that is exactly what is happening. It has been happening for the last century ever since Hindu gurus arrived in the West. The West is now increasingly becoming more Hindu.

You think too much like a nationalist. I don’t blame you are still young. I am thinking like a globalist. And globalization is a fact of our times. You either join the flow and enrichen it, or get left behind. Even Churches have been forced to go with the flow.

Your a soul at the end of the day, you don’t have a planet, a country, a race.
Your purpose is to develop spiritually and while you do that develop the rest of your souls on this planet. See the others as souls, rather than x nationality, y race, z creed. Forgive as much as you can, take as much abuse as you can, and when it is goes to the limit, then exercise violence. This is the example lord Krishna and lord Rama set. Paitence and resilence are time honoured Hindu qualities.

You are too quick to violence, condemnation and abuse. This is not ahimsa. This is no different to how a Muslim behaves.

There are still peaceful ways to end the problems of persecution of Hindus in India. Until they are not exhausted, do not think of violence.