The Eternal Way

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;34166]Here is a trade secret: The greater your powers of concentration the greater your psychic powers.

This is the ONLY difference between superior beings and inferior beings. The ordinary human being can only concentrate for a few seconds and this is why the human being cannot penetrate deep into reality because he is never focussing long enough. The masters/gods/buddhas call them what you may, however, have a concentration like a laser beam which penetrates deep into the nature of reality(past the quantum, into the mental, the causal and spiritual)

All Yoga is about is training your powers of concentration.[/QUOTE]

YEP. Pretty much…

but not totally…

[QUOTE=The Scales;34174]I see you do not get it just yet.[/QUOTE]

I do get it

The reintegrated being, the yogi, having churned the four wisdoms (vedas) and all scriptures, enjoy their cream, their essence

I have emboldened the operative word. You must first reintegrate i.e., go through a process, a churning, a transformation before you can reach self-realization.

Prior to that you cannot claim to be god. If you go around claiming you are god at this point you will be challenged and you will fail. It would be like me going around claiming I am the the strongest man in the world, and then looking like a right tool when I fail to bench press even 100lb :smiley:

Well thats a Rip.

I dont’ want to be the Almighty lord of the Universe I want to be me.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;34121]TeeA, yes it has. I am not talking about String theory here. I am talking about Quantum Mechanics. I have read several books by actual quantum physicists that declare this themselves. It is proven beyond a reason of doubt that world is not made out of matter but information or waves of possiblity. It does not take any physical form until the observer collapses the wavefunction. We now know for a fact that the beyond the physical world exists a whole new dimension where in the universe exists as one entangled quantum system and is interacting with everything at all once. We can now use this new dimension for effects like quantum tunneling, quantum teleportation and quantum levitation. This is all proven stuff we have even been able to experimentally demonstrate it.[/QUOTE]

I would first like to apologize on not including the Uncertainty Priniciple or Quantum Mechanics. I was typing this late last night (after midnight and I work early in the morning) and just summarized. However you misread my statement. I was not implying that you were speaking of string theory, rather that many of therories, including those based on Quantum Mechanics are highly complicated theories. Just that. THEORIES! As for an extra dimension that is not mentioned in Quantum Mechanics and is a bi-product of string theory.
Even if Quantum Mechanics (as you like to describe it rather than Theory) was the end all be all (explaining all of the observable effects)…then explain why are 100% of the world’s theoretical physicist are still trying to reconcile it with Relativity!! :confused:
If what you said is true then would we have a complete working model that predicted everything that would happen. I would then be out of a career.

As for the extra Dimension that has not been proven either. This is again just a theory. It has been for nearly 100 years. However if you want to discuss multiple dimensions as it relates to Quantum Mechanics, it is merely a mathematical fix between Quantum Mechanics and Relativity. Mathematically we can not represent the Quantum world (ground state) AND use Relativity to describe the relationships that occur. So scientist added dimensions until they had a model (actually there are 5 main string theories, multiple Brane theories, 1000’s of mathematical models as well as millions of crackpot ideas) that matched some of the predictions that both Relativity and Quantum Mechanics make. (There is a debate of 5 to 13 dimensions)

As for the waves of probability you describe, you must read Quantum Mechanics by Durac better. It states that you can not know the state of a system (waves, particles or combinations of) before measuring (observing) it. Schr?dinger’s equation just shows us that when we observe a particle or wave, we force it into a particular state based on the wave function . This is the basis of the Uncertanity Principle, that we can not know both the momentum and the position of a particle after we measure it. We can only know one of the results. An example. If I have a box with a live cat in it and connected to that box is hose that connects to another box that contains a radioactive material. There is a probability that the radioactive material will decay which would release radiation and therefore kill the cat. I can not know the state of the cat (whether it is dead or alive) until I open (observe) the box. At that point I force the cat into a particular state (dead or alive). This in no way disproves that the cat does not exist rather that I can not know the state of the cat until it is observed, and only then I can only measure whether it is dead or alive and not both.

Matter is matter. Is was proven by Einstein and others. He in fact won the Nobel in Physics for this (photoelectric effect) and not Relativity. Hence the photon. A discrete amount of energy that has both wave and particle properties.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;34121]I already told you a theory in the scientific world does not mean just a guess or a conjecture, it is an entire model that explains all observable facts in the world and makes predictions of unobservables. It does not claim to have know ultimately what anything is such as “time” or “gravity” but it certainly can explain the observable facts. Based on observable facts we have been able to prove the existence of the quantum world and disproven th old common sensetheory of there being a physical world. Whatever it is, it ain’t physical.[/QUOTE]
Yes we have proven there is a quantum “world” (existing in our own 3-1 universe and not some other dimension) that is made of quarks, photons, electrons, positrons, and other parts of Matter and Anti Matter. This is not another dimension. There is a physical world. The general theory is that our world of 3-1 space-time is carved out by energy and matter (both interchangeable between each other E=mc^2). Since we can not at this time prove (or observe) other dimensions whether infinitely larger or smaller than our own, the other theories have no grounding at this time.
Also just a point. If we knew Quantum Mechanics had an answer for everything you want it too… the entire scientific community would be out of a job.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;34147]This is a strawman. Your son is a child and is dependent on you. He is not an independent adult who made made his own life.

Of course people are greater than others. Buddha was wiser than you, Einstien was smarter than you, Bradd Pitt is probably better looking than you and Arnie is stronger than you.

Only people who are insecure say things like, “No one greater than anyone else” because they can’t accept they are in fact inferior to so many people out there.

The caste system is the most logical system to organize society. You organize society according to the aptitude of the people. If you have not much aptitude
for anything you are assigned as a labourer. If you have good calculating and management skills you are assigned a merchant. If you have great intellectual ability
you are assigned a teacher etc. Although every person has equal functional value because society needs all to function properly, it is clear that the merchant is
higher than the labourer, and the teacher is higher than the merchant.[/QUOTE]

And you are a child as well. One who totally misses the point due to arrogance. I hope someday when you are much older and wiser you don’t come to regret. Also don’t attempt to pull the toothpick out of my eye when you have a log in yours.
If it is your goal to “convert people to Hinduism” you are going about it the wrong way. Stating how much better you are than everyone else shows that you lack wisdom. In many ways you are as inflaming as those you despise.
As for the merchant, he would not have workers without labourers and the teacher not eat without the merchant to sell.

Even if Quantum Mechanics (as you like to describe it rather than Theory) was the end all be all (explaining all of the observable effects)…then explain why are 100% of the world’s theoretical physicist are still trying to reconcile it with Relativity!! :confused:
If what you said is true then would we have a complete working model that predicted everything that would happen. I would then be out of a career.

This is because Quantum mechanics and relativity produce a completely contradictory description of the world which cannot be reconciled with one another. The quantum description is non-locality, uncertainty, discontinuity and wavefunctions. The relativity description is locality, certainty, continuity and particles.

After decoherence in quantum mechanics one can adopt relativity to explain the behaviour of particles but prior to decoherence relativity cannot be used because the particle exists as a wavefunctuon so quantum probabilistic analysis is used instead.

However, decoherence only gives the apperance of the wavefunction collapse and now even macro objects can be modelled and explained using quantum mechanics and relativity is falling by the wayside.

The use of string theory is necessary to explain the stable behaviour of particles which it explains are not probabilistic and uncertain and can be explained by positing other dimensions and quantum strings.

As for the extra Dimension that has not been proven either.

No, it has. This is because quantum events do not take place in the classical world of 4D space-time. If they did, they would violate the laws of relativity such as locality, conservation of energy and the fact that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light. Einstein was aware that quantum mechanics violated Relativity and he set out to disprove quantum mechanics using the EPR problem and showing that it gave rise to a phenomenon called “spooky action” Then Bell was able to demonstrate that there was no violation at all, because quantum information does not travel in 4D space-time, but outside of 4D spacetime in the quantum world. This is by definition makes it a 5th dimension.

It sounds like you do not realise quantum mechanics contadicts classical physics. There is no contradiction if you posit that quantum mechanics deals with the 5th dimension and classical physics deals with 3rd and 4th dimension.

As for the waves of probability you describe, you must read Quantum Mechanics by Durac better. It states that you can not know the state of a system (waves, particles or combinations of) before measuring (observing) it. Schr?dinger’s equation just shows us that when we observe a particle or wave, we force it into a particular state based on the wave function . This is the basis of the Uncertanity Principle, that we can not know both the momentum and the position of a particle after we measure it. We can only know one of the results. An example. If I have a box with a live cat in it and connected to that box is hose that connects to another box that contains a radioactive material. There is a probability that the radioactive material will decay which would release radiation and therefore kill the cat. I can not know the state of the cat (whether it is dead or alive) until I open (observe) the box. At that point I force the cat into a particular state (dead or alive). This in no way disproves that the cat does not exist rather that I can not know the state of the cat until it is observed, and only then I can only measure whether it is dead or alive and not both.

Yes I am very well aware of Schrodingers cat. Schrodinger devised this in order to show that Bohr and Heisenberg were wrong about the copenhagen interpretation that the the particle did not exist prior to the act of measurement. While, he accepted the particle exised as a wavefunction at some point its collapsed into a particle even before we measured it and the conclusion that our measurement caused it to collapse was absurd. Thus he posited there are hidden variables prior to the act of measurement which collapse the wavefunction.

All hidden variables theories have now been disproven. As I showed earlier with the article I posted. There are no hidden variables, the particle is indeed being collapsed on measurement. Eugene Wigner, the developer of the Wigners friends paradox and the consciousness-based theory of measurement shows clearly through strong argument that the entire system is quantumly entangled prior to measurement so it cannot collapse itself. This means that consciousness of the observer is the only entity in the world that is not entangled because the measurement chain only ends when the observers makes a measurement.

Matter is matter. Is was proven by Einstein and others. He in fact won the Nobel in Physics for this (photoelectric effect) and not Relativity. Hence the photon. A discrete amount of energy that has both wave and particle properties.

Einstein has long been disproven and part of the reason he hated quantum mechanics so much was because it contradicted his theory as well as his religious sentiment of the elegance and order of the universe, which quantum physics contradicted. Hence why he famously said, “God does not play dice”

The fact is clear that energy either is a particle or it is a wave. Sometimes it exists as a particle and sometimes as a wave, but it is not both at the same time. This is what explains quantum tunneling where a particle can jump from one state to the other by turning into a wave and then into a particle again. The double slit experiment is very clear that the electron is either a particle or a wave but it is not both at the same time.

Yes we have proven there is a quantum “world” (existing in our own 3-1 universe and not some other dimension) that is made of quarks, photons, electrons, positrons, and other parts of Matter and Anti Matter. This is not another dimension. There is a physical world. The general theory is that our world of 3-1 space-time is carved out by energy and matter (both interchangeable between each other E=mc^2). Since we can not at this time prove (or observe) other dimensions whether infinitely larger or smaller than our own, the other theories have no grounding at this time.
Also just a point. If we knew Quantum Mechanics had an answer for everything you want it too… the entire scientific community would be out of a job.

The scientific community want to keep their job that is why they cannot accept that quantum physics requires an observer in its theory to make it work. They want to keep consciousness outside of physics so they ignore what quantum mechanics is saying and continue to work with particles(electrons, positrons, matter and anti matter) However, quantum mechanics is very clear that prior to the wavefunction collapse there are no such thing as particles.

The scientific community will eventually have no choice but to accept quantum mechanics has proven that this physical world would not exist without consciousness. The evidence supporting this is staggering now.

Ironic, that you just missed my point for the same reason :wink:

As for the merchant, he would not have workers without labourers and the teacher not eat without the merchant to sell.

That is why I said they each have the same functional value. Do you know what this means? Evidently not. A functional system is where all parts in the system contribute to the functioning of the system. However, this does not mean each part is equal. Some parts are obviously more important than others. Such as in your computer the microprocessor is more important than the capacitor and the diode, because it is far more intricate and valuable. Similarly even though the dustbin man is just as needed in society as the teacher is, the teacher is obviously more important than the dustbin man and will get paid more and respected more.

There is no need to be politically correct. It is blatantly obvious that people in this world are not equal. Some are smart and some are stupid; some are beautiful and some are ugly; some are strong and some are weak. This is just the natural order of things.

[QUOTE=The Scales;34177]Well thats a Rip.

I dont’ want to be the Almighty lord of the Universe I want to be me.[/QUOTE]

Surya!!!

I’m waiting patiently for your retort!
:cool:

TeeVa-

Great argument! Well thought out and written. What is your line of work?

Some people refuse to ‘discuss’. They don’t listen or want to. Sad, isn’t it?

Many thanks!!!

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;34199]TeeVa-

Great argument! Well thought out and written. What is your line of work?

Some people refuse to ‘discuss’. They don’t listen or want to. Sad, isn’t it?

Many thanks!!![/QUOTE]

You and TeeVa are very very intelligent, and humble people! I love reading your posts. It’s a shame there are so many children on this forum.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;34175]I do get it

I have emboldened the operative word. You must first reintegrate i.e., go through a process, a churning, a transformation before you can reach self-realization.

Prior to that you cannot claim to be god. If you go around claiming you are god at this point you will be challenged and you will fail. It would be like me going around claiming I am the the strongest man in the world, and then looking like a right tool when I fail to bench press even 100lb :D[/QUOTE]

nope. You still don’t get it, and it’s like the core of your religion - which I know so well.

Self Realization and God Realization are distinct but closely related.

Goodness Gracious will the whoopings ever cease? I routinely whoop you up and down this forum seventy ways to sunday.

Now you just ignore my Gnosis . . . Sad this makes me…

Self-realization is God realization

Atman = Brahman

:smiley:

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;34434]Self-realization is God realization

Atman = Brahman

:D[/QUOTE]

Wrong again.

I can see how this notion could be misconstrued by the learned.

Hence all your babel about “I am God.” “Can’t wait till I’m God.” “It will be really sweet once I’m God.”

and so on…

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;34434]Self-realization is God realization

Atman = Brahman

:D[/QUOTE]
and if you know this then why are you planning on going to learn from a master?

Not wrong.

This is the most well established doctrine of Hinduism: Atman = Brahman: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ok8qO9-uws

[QUOTE=Brother Neil;34436]and if you know this then why are you planning on going to learn from a master?[/QUOTE]

There is no way to self-realization without the grace of the Guru.

little jiva = atman

If you are using the term Brahman to denote the Almighty Awesome, this little jiva (me) is not Brahman.

Your confused.

Self Realization is not God Realization. Once can Realize God and not realize thier self (seer, purusha, jivatman). Or conversely they can Realize thier self, see thier true face as it is said and not Realize the Almighty.

I will say this . . . like attracts like.

Please check with me before posting anymore of your innane blithering…

Oh how do I whoop thee? Let me count the ways…

Also Guru can take many forms. Guru can be a principle of the almighty awesome. Guru can be the Teachings. Guru can be an embodied being. Guru can be hangin out in a subtle realm and contact you through signs in the prakriti and so on, or telepathically.

No you nitwit :smiley:

The Jiva is not the Atman. The Jiva is the living spark.

The Atman is the Self and it is identical with the cosmos, Brahman.

There is no god separate from the Self in Hinduism. This is a very well established doctrine of Hinduism.

Are you Hindu by the way?

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;34438]There is no way to self-realization without the grace of the Guru.[/QUOTE]
to know this you must be self realized, yes?