Whos fault

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#81

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;33442]Namaste, no, my birthday has passed.

[B]So what day/month was it. Just curious… :)[/B]

English is not even in competition. If there is any other language in the world that you could put second to Sanskrit, that would be German. These are highly inflected and technical languages. I met many German speakers who also complain about how ambigious English is. There is of course a massive gap between Sanskrit and German. Sanskrit in fact is even more precise than formal computer languages. It has been compared to machine code.

[B]The whole Universe is Sanskrit!!! Ha. Like the matrix. joke… kinda.[/B]

The current search in computer science and artificial intelligence is to develop a natural language that we can use to interface with machines but the the machine can understand formally as well. The only language in the world that is both a formal machine language and a natural language is Sanskrit and hence why Sanskrit is being studied extensively by computer scientists.

:o

There is no doubt about it that the entire Vedic civilisation is a superhuman civilisation. There are no parallels even to this very day for the great Vedic scientists. The secret to his genius is revealed by Sri Aurobindo: their education system. Their education system was not like ours where we would bombard underdeveloped minds with facts and fictures over several years. Their education system was developing and expanding every faculty we have(body, mind, intellect, intuition) through the science of Yoga.

Such that their learning, attention and thinking abilities underwent a quantum leap. For such a realised mind what would take several years of study for an underdeveloped mind would take a few days for them. This is how they could develop a language like Sanskrit which still boggles the minds of todays computer scientists and linguists. If we could measure their IQ it would probably be in the 1000+ range.

[B]This is so true…

Sadly the american school system is pretty much clueless. I should know I think I was educated in one of the worst rural schools you could dream of. Perhaps thats why I only did the minimum I could to scrape by…?

But it is a very brand new system, but also one based on the so called material universe. That view that negates or doesn’t realize or utilize the capacities of the human being to it’s full potential.

Whereas , perhaps by and large, the Vedic civilization incorporated the arts and sciences and physical and spiritual development into an integrated whole. Which is beautiful… Which is good for the world. Is it not?

What happened to that approach in India? I’m sure there must still be pockets of that educational approach going on in the heart of the world . . . but it is not prevalent . . . i don’t think. [/B]

[/QUOTE]

The message you have entered is too short! :cool:

#82

Surya Deva,
Thanks for the tutorial. Interesting. My thoughts:
As a Hindu, if you ascribe to the Samkhya philosophy then I can understand how you view ego as important in yoga. I, however, do not. Therefore we can both be correct in our view and importance of ego. In Buddhism and in many forms of yoga the goal is to burn off your ego because it is ladened with attachments. Attachments of feelings, desires and so forth. According to what I, and many others believe, in order to reach enlightenment one must separate the ego from the true self. We become one.

If you do a search on interpretation of Patanjali’s Sutra’s or even Yoga + ego you will see the many views. I will honor your belief as it is yours and shared by others. Hopefully you will honor mine and those who share it.

One final thing I’d like to point out. You condemn YogiAdam for boasting about his young girlfriend, but aren’t you guilty of the same thing by boasting of your superior intellect, no one can beat me attitude and the fact that you say you are a very powerful Jnana yogi? Not to mention you also told him not to go out of his way to insult people. Didn’t you do this to me in several responses to my posts? This helps me to understand where you are coming from with ego.

#83

As a Hindu, if you ascribe to the Samkhya philosophy then I can understand how you view ego as important in yoga. I, however, do not. Therefore we can both be correct in our view and importance of ego.

It is not possible for both to be correct and have opposing views. Either you are correct and I am wrong, or I am wrong and you are correct. Hindus do not deal with beliefs.

There is no such thing as Yoga separate from Samkhya and in turn separate from Hinduism. The entire theory of Yoga is Samkhya. They cannot be separated.

You are trying to separate Yoga and look at it in a vacuum. This is impossible, this is like trying to look at Marxism without looking at Marx. Everybody has to be critically studied within its context.

Not only are you misrepresenting Yoga, you are misrepresenting Buddhism. Buddhism is not about burining of the attachments, feelings, desires etc to reach the self, but Buddhism is about attaining absolute nothingness(nirvana) the absolute extinguishing of self(anatman)

You have got everything so horribly mixed up :smiley:

I have looked at 15 different translations of Patanjali Sutras none of them say “Yoga is the releasing of the ego to reach enlightenment” I just gave you a proper word for word Sanskrit translation of his sutras. Then after that I went to the effort and give you a detailed lesson of the entire theory it is based on.

You are wrong. You are free to be wrong, but don’t expect me to agree with you. Nobody, absolutely nobody supports your view. Most definitely not Patanjali or the great yogacharyas and swamis. You should have the honesty to admit when you are wrong, because if not, you will never be able to be right.

First of all begin with the context:

  1. Yoga is a practice of Hinduism
  2. Yoga is based on Hindu philosophy(as expounded in the Vedas)
  3. Yoga is systematized and codified by a Hindu scientist called Patanjali
  4. The language of all classical Yoga texts is Sanskrit
  5. Hindu gurus and masters teach Yoga theory and practice

If you do not have a good grasp of Hinduism you will not have a good grasp of Yoga. However, lets go this far. If you do not read the original texts without reference to the highly technical Sanskrit terms, you will completely misunderstood Yoga.

Even translating one single word incorrectly will destroy the meaning. This is why I do not appreciate your ambigious definition of Yoga “Yoga is the release of the ego to reach enlightenment” This is not Yoga. This is madness. If you released your ego you would be an amobea.

#84

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;33449] In Buddhism and in many forms of yoga the goal is to burn off your ego because it is ladened with attachments. Attachments of feelings, desires and so forth. .[/QUOTE]

This is pretty much a perfect summary of Buddhism. I’m very familiar with Buddhism, and destroying your ego is at it’s very core. I’m am, however, quite new to Yoga, and was beginning to worry that it’s philosophy may be a little premature. Thank you for clarifying to me that it isn’t.

#85

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;33449]Surya Deva,[/QUOTE]

May I offer a suggestion. Some people on this forum are a waste of time to converse with. They sap your strength, and take out their inadequacies on you. If you’ve ever worked with sufferers of schizophrenia, you appreciate that that they experience delusions, which are FIXED, false beliefs. I highlighted FIXED, to emphasize the fact that one of the characteristics of a person experiencing delusions, are that they cannot be convinced otherwise. You can not convince a mentally ill person, that their delusions are not real, no matter what extent you go to. This is the type of lost cause you may experience, when attempting to reason with certain people on this forum. Just thought I’d help you out :smiley:

#86

[QUOTE=YogiAdam;33461]This is pretty much a perfect summary of Buddhism. I’m very familiar with Buddhism, and destroying your ego is at it’s very core. I’m am, however, quite new to Yoga, and was beginning to worry that it’s philosophy may be a little premature. Thank you for clarifying to me that it isn’t.[/QUOTE]

Uh I don’t think so…

You agree with lotusgirl because her expression falls in line with your beliefs about it.

To me it’s about transcendence of ego/ahamkara, which the yoga system from my perspective is also about.

Yes Yes Yes I think there are many interpretations translations of the yoga sutras that becasue of the complexities of Sanskrit, and perhaps lack of thorough understanding of vedanta and its tools of knowledge (yoga), and lack of jnana on the part of the translator that there are incongruities which distort or pervert the true meaning…

Tough business translation of Sanskrit is…

I also do believe that Patanjali was influenced by buddhism to some greater or lesser degree in his codification. I think Buddhism was perhaps peaking about those times in India.

I agree with alan watts sentiment that Buddhism is basically Hinduism stripped to the core. When I say stripped to the core . . . I mean negation of Brahmanic Ritual, negation of caste reliance on the Brahmins, negation of the importance of sacrifices to the devas, and so on. I think Buddha’s emphasis was on self effort, virtue, meditation, inquiry and logic.

#87

[QUOTE=The Scales;33464]I agree with alan watts sentiment that at least initially Buddhism is basically Hinduism stripped to the core.[/QUOTE]

That really cheapens Buddhism for me… Luckily Allan Watts was a nut job, who took LSD. I prefer to listen to the Dalai Lama myself.

#88

That’s an interesting statement. So you feel the only way to experience yoga is through Hinduism?

I can only speak of my experience here. I have not released my ego nor can I comprehend how I would be if I did. I feel my ego is a good thing, there for my protection/and or insight when needed. For example, I feel my ego is useful when I swim too far out in the ocean and have that voice say, “Hey dumbass, you may want to turn back now”. Or my ego says, “No, based upon past experience, you do not want to eat that raisin you found in the couch cushions.” I appreciate my ego during such times.

However, at present, I feel I am not coming from a place of ego. I feel I am walking a razor thin line between ego and body, without being attached to either. I am present. However, I observe that my ego, at this point, is constantly attempting to get me to reattach to it. And sometimes it is successful :slight_smile: It’d be quite interesting to see how I would be and feel if I at some point destroy my ego. But at this point, I just can’t comprehend such a thing.

#89

I find it interesting how often we tend to accuse others of mental illness. I’ve often done it myself. I get PMs all the time from people upset at others on this forum and that the other person no doubt is mentally ill.

Maybe we’re all mentally ill? Maybe none of us are? Maybe it’s an easy way to discount what another person is saying? Maybe we’re projecting? Maybe I drank way too much caffeine this morning? Maybe I’m violent and not being honest with myself? Maybe the other person IS mentally ill. Maybe it’s an opportunity for compassion and understanding? Maybe I’m taking things too seriously?

shrug

#90

[QUOTE=YogiAdam;33467]That really cheapens Buddhism for me… Luckily Allan Watts was a nut job, who took LSD. I prefer to listen to the Dalai Lama myself.[/QUOTE]

Shakyamuni buddha grew up a hindu - i’m pretty sure…

Both points atman/self (vedas) and anatman/noself (buddhadharma) depending on the view, I believe, are correct.

The LSD refrence is pointless poppy cock.

#91

[QUOTE=David;33470]I find it interesting how often we tend to accuse others of mental illness. I’ve often done it myself. I get PMs all the time from people upset at others on this forum and that the other person no doubt is mentally ill.

Maybe we’re all mentally ill? Maybe none of us are? Maybe it’s an easy way to discount what another person is saying? Maybe we’re projecting? Maybe I drank way too much caffeine this morning? Maybe I’m violent and not being honest with myself? Maybe the other person IS mentally ill. Maybe it’s an opportunity for compassion and understanding? Maybe I’m taking things too seriously?

shrug[/QUOTE]

I can definitely appreciate your point, and I’m taking it on board.

#92

No, the practice of Yoga can be done by anybody and anywhere in the universe. However, the only way to understand Yoga is through Hinduism as it was developed by Hindus to attain the goal of atman-jnana(self-realization) and is completely based on Hindu philosophy. The core texts of Hinduism are treatises on Yoga.

It is the contention of many Hindus that while Yoga may indeed be taken out of Hinduism as a practice which can used by everybody else of any religion, caste, creed, sect, class, gender, Hinduism cannot be taken outside of Yoga.

I can only speak of my experience here. I have not released my ego nor can I comprehend how I would be if I did. I feel my ego is a good thing, there for my protection/and or insight when needed. For example, I feel my ego is useful when I swim too far out in the ocean and have that voice say, “Hey dumbass, you may want to turn back now”. Or my ego says, “No, based upon past experience, you do not want to eat that raisin you found in the couch cushions.” I appreciate my ego during such times.

However, at present, I feel I am not coming from a place of ego. I feel I am walking a razor thin line between ego and body, without being attached to either. I am present. However, I observe that my ego, at this point, is constantly attempting to get me to reattach to it. And sometimes it is successful :slight_smile: It’d be quite interesting to see how I would be and feel if I at some point destroy my ego. But at this point, I just can’t comprehend such a thing.

The ego is taken to mean self is definitely a very good thing. It is at the heart of Yoga philosophy. As you say yourself you cannot even comprehend what it would be like to lose your ego. I submit to you, the reason you cannot comprehend this is because it is impossible to lose your ego because you are your ego. Krishna tells Arjuna in the Gita, “There will never be a time when you will not be or I will not be” So the distorted translation that we must end our ego is nothing more than nihilism and it is very destructive and dangeorus.

It is easy to see people who have a lack of self have low self-esteem, are underconfident, scared do not have success in life. Alternatively, it is easy to see people who have high self-esteem, who are confident, brave do have success in life.

To tell somebody to destroy their ego is more like telling them to stop questioning and to blindly submit to authority and the status quo. This perverted teaching is not the teaching of Yoga. The teaching of Yoga is that we are all divine and great beings and we should all realise this absolute potential within us by expanding our self to the infinite.

Swami Chinmayananda has a beautiful discourse online on youtube where he explains a verse in the Gita and says, “aspire for the infinite” Even if the infinite were unattainable it would keep us going forever in our spiritual sojourn and we live live every moment reaching one height after the other.

Yoga is life-affirming. It is not nihilistic like Buddhism. What makes Hinduism so radically different from Buddhism is it holds steadfast to the doctrine of Atman. Hindusim also embraces all desires of life(pleasure, knowledge, wealth, spiritual enlightenment) which is why it is so colourful and embracing. Buddhism, on the other hand, is life-denying. It is about suppressing desires.

#93

This whole thing is completely out of hand. I like to believe we are all on the same path. The difference is each of us may choose a different way to get there. It DOES NOT MEAN THAT ANYONE IS WRONG. As long as our motives are pure we need not worry or argue about which path is right. Surya, you are Hindu. You have your own path. I’m Buddhist and I have mine. So what if Buddhism was born out of Hinduism? It doesn’t matter when you look at the whole picture. Being Hindu, you cannot fully understand Buddhism, just as I cannot understand Hinduism or your philosophy fully.

I refuse to discuss this anymore. There is no discussion only bashing and arrogance. Even if you do believe that ego is essential to yoga I don’t think you want arrogance attached to it.

#94

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;33479]It is easy to see people who have a lack of self have low self-esteem[/QUOTE]

Why, are you standing in front of a mirror? lol

#95

That responds was a genuine joke, by the way :smiley:

#96

I dunno, I didn’t feel any bashing or arrogance towards or from the people I have interacted with here. Maybe it’s there and I simply chose to read it another way? Or maybe it’s not there.

shrug

Either way, I’ve appreciated your perspective. This is all super interesting to me! :slight_smile:

#97

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;33481]This whole thing is completely out of hand. I like to believe we are all on the same path. The difference is each of us may choose a different way to get there. It DOES NOT MEAN THAT ANYONE IS WRONG. As long as our motives are pure we need not worry or argue about which path is right. Surya, you are Hindu. You have your own path. I’m Buddhist and I have mine. So what if Buddhism was born out of Hinduism? It doesn’t matter when you look at the whole picture. Being Hindu, you cannot fully understand Buddhism, just as I cannot understand Hinduism or your philosophy fully.

I refuse to discuss this anymore. There is no discussion only bashing and arrogance. Even if you do believe that ego is essential to yoga I don’t think you want arrogance attached to it.[/QUOTE]

This is a very wise girl.

#98

Hmmm. I’m not quite grasping your teaching. Can you word it another way? If not, I’m happy to ponder it for awhile and see if it clicks.

I think that makes sense. Hindus feel that hinduism is an integral part of yoga and it would be like taking using your feet out of soccer and still calling it soccer?

I don’t feel like I am my ego. I feel like my ego is a PART of me. Part of a much greater whole. Any feelings on that?

I’ve often told people to let go of their ego. I realize now it was me being unaccepting of how they were. AND that I was coming from ego. Hahahah.

Link please?

Can you provide a couple examples of Buddhist teaching that is about suppressing desires please?

#99

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;33481]This whole thing is completely out of hand. I like to believe we are all on the same path. The difference is each of us may choose a different way to get there. It DOES NOT MEAN THAT ANYONE IS WRONG. As long as our motives are pure we need not worry or argue about which path is right. Surya, you are Hindu. You have your own path. I’m Buddhist and I have mine. So what if Buddhism was born out of Hinduism? It doesn’t matter when you look at the whole picture. Being Hindu, you cannot fully understand Buddhism, just as I cannot understand Hinduism or your philosophy fully.

I refuse to discuss this anymore. There is no discussion only bashing and arrogance. Even if you do believe that ego is essential to yoga I don’t think you want arrogance attached to it.[/QUOTE]

I certainly do not claim Buddhism is Hinduism. Buddhism is a nastika(atheist, Veda denying) philosophy and thus Hindus do not consider Buddhism Hinduism at all. We accept the Buddha, but not the religion his followers created, which we believe is a perversion of Buddhas original teachings.

In any case you were not talking about Buddhism earlier but Yoga. Yoga is Hindu. The practices you guys may have similarities with Yoga but it is not Yoga. There is no such thing as Buddhist or Taoist Yoga. These are just terms given to the practices of Buddhism and Taoism because they resemble Yoga. Just like some ignorant people call Christian meditation practices Yoga.

In any case I believe that Buddhism and Taoism have obviously borrowed these techniques from Yoga but by taking them out of Hinduism it is no longer Yoga anymore.

Yoga hinges on the doctrine of Atman and self. The Buddhists and the Taoists have no such doctrine.

#100

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;33496]I certainly do not claim Buddhism is Hinduism. Buddhism is a nastika(atheist, Veda denying) philosophy and thus Hindus do not consider Buddhism Hinduism at all. We accept the Buddha, but not the religion his followers created, which we believe is a perversion of Buddhas original teachings.[/QUOTE]

This is just like the discrepancy of what Jesus means, between Christianity and Islam. Christians say he’s God, Muslims say he’s a prophet. It’s very odd how people can argue about ideas that are accepted out faith. Religion is such a confusing subject.